Transcript

00:06:12 Speaker 1

The subcommittee hearing on unidentified anomalous phenomena or UA P’s will come to order. Welcome everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare A recess at any time. Additionally, without objection, the following members are waived on to the Subcommittee for the purpose of participating in today’s hearing. Mr. Burchett of Tennessee.

00:06:32 Speaker 1

Luna, Florida. Mr. Gaetz, of Florida, Mr. Burleson of Missouri, missus Ocasio Cortez in New York and Mr. Ogles of Tennessee without objection, so ordered for today’s subcommittee hearing. Both the chair and ranking member will have 10 minutes for opening remarks. We may both be giving some of those minutes.

00:06:53 Speaker 1

To other members of our party, I’m now going to recognize myself.

00:06:57 Speaker 1

For 10 minutes, I’m actually gonna try to get out of here in about four, and then we’ll give it to some of my friends over here. Good morning, and welcome to the mostly exciting the most exciting subcommittee in Congress this week, the Subcommittee on National Security to the Border and Foreign Affairs for discussion of unidentified anomalous phenomenon. I’d like to thank the brave military.

00:07:18 Speaker 1

Pilots and personnel such as wit, such as the witnesses on the panel today for sharing their stories on how they’ve engaged AP’s, which has brought attention to this matter.

00:07:29 Speaker 1

Curiosity and speculation from all walks of life have generated interest in studying what UA’s are and and what threats they they may pose. I will say that when I was younger in school, I read a book, a 1966 book called Flying Saucers, Serious Business, and for A While when I was a little bit younger, I thought it was the most important.

00:07:50 Speaker 1

Issue out there.

00:07:53 Speaker 1

The the lack of a transparency regarding UA’s, which was one of the themes of that book.

00:08:07 Speaker 1

In any event, it’s it’s led to interest in studying what UAC’s are and what.

00:08:11 Speaker 1

Threats they pose.

00:08:13 Speaker 1

The lack of transparency regarding the AP’s has fueled wild speculation and debate for decades, eroding public trust in the very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them, as is evidenced by the large number of people we have here. I also want to point out in 1966, President Gerald Ford claimed to have seen the UFO and in 1969.

00:08:33 Speaker 1

In Georgia, Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO.

00:08:37 Speaker 1

So this has LED Congress to establish entities to examine AP’s, the National Defense Authorization Act of 2022, establish the all Domain Anomaly Resolution Officer ARRO to conduct or to coordinate efforts across the Department of Defense and other federal agents, federal agencies to.

00:08:57 Speaker 1

Detect, identify and investigate U AP’s. However, AR’s budget remains classified, prohibiting meaningful oversight from Congress. In addition to AR’s efforts, Nassau’s leading an independent study, and U AP’s that will identify how UAP data is gathered from both.

00:09:16 Speaker 1

Civilian and government entities that can be analyzed to shed light on the topic. However, despite these offices being established, their lives suppressing demand for government transparency and accountability that cannot be overlooked. And that’s been a problem that’s been around for 50 years. The Biden administration handling of the Chinese Bible.

00:09:36 Speaker 1

One that violated US airspace is one example how the government is not prepared for these the by the administrations description of events.

00:09:45 Speaker 1

Has shown that the government continues not to be forthright between the Chinese balloon being shot down in two UAP’s subsequently shot down following the event earlier this year, the US government spent one and a half million dollars in taxpayer dollars on missiles, yet we have seen little clarity from the Biden administration. We must demand transparency from the Department of Defense, our intelligence community, and our defense industry.

00:10:08 Speaker 1

On the AP work, we’re gonna have some questions about that today. Congress recognizes the subject of UAP’s is multifaceted and requires a careful data-driven.

00:10:17 Speaker 1

Approach. Today we will see clarity from these witnesses. Testimonies. We will seek clarity as to what can be done to improve reporting for military and civilians and remain committed to objective inquiry. Congress should work to ensure that knowledge is not driven by fear. Today we are not just debating the existence of a.

00:10:37 Speaker 1

These we are deliberating on the principles that define our Republic, which is a commitment to transparency and accountability, and I look forward to hearing.

00:10:44 Speaker 1

From our witnesses today.

00:10:46 Speaker 1

About ways we can improve government efficiency and openness when it comes to AP’s, I thank each of you for your presence here today and for your dedication to safeguarding the interests of the American people. I look forward to your testimony and I’m going to turn it over for 2 1/2 or 3 minutes to representative Birchwood from Tennessee.

00:11:05 Speaker 2

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here. I want to thank everybody for making this happen today and I want to remind everybody, this is a nonpartisan issue. This has nothing to do with party politics, I think.

00:11:18 Speaker 2

The cover up goes a lot deeper than that. I also want to thank my colleagues, representative Anna Paulina Luna, sitting beside me here. Jared Moskowitz, my friend.

00:11:29 Speaker 2

It’s the aisle. There’s an incredible mind, and I’m anxious to hear his questions. My buddy Eric Burleson, and it’s not in my notes here, but Matt Gates, if it hadn’t been for Matt Gates, myself, him and Luna would still be down at Eglin Air Force Base trying to get some answers.

00:11:45 Speaker 2

He’s got an incredible legal mind. Also, I know I saw it in the crowd there. George Knapp, my buddy Jeremy Corbell. I’ve.

00:11:53 Speaker 2

They’re not witnesses, but they’ve provided some statements on this subject and I seek unanimous consent to enter those statements into the record, Mr. Chairman.

00:12:02 Speaker 1

Without objection.

00:12:03 Speaker 2

Also would like to enter in. I understand now that this is unclassified and it’s public record, but as we all know, that’s sometimes difficult for the public to get a hold of our report defense intelligence reference documents advanced space propulsion based on vacuum.

00:12:19 Speaker 2

Space-time metric engineering. Some light reading for some of our.

00:12:22 Speaker 2

Members without.

00:12:23 Speaker 2

Objection. Thank you. You know, Mr. Knapp wrote since 1969, the position our military has been that UFO’s pose no threat to national security and are not worth worthy of further study. I’d say that’s the biggest understatement of the decade.

00:12:39 Speaker 2

He also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude and said odds with what was revealed in documents, reports and internal memos.

00:12:46 Speaker 2

Mr. Cabrel says is. Is he right? These words, the UFO is emerging as a major topic of global importance.

00:12:54 Speaker 2

I I can state that as a fact out there, I met a fellow who came in there all the way from Denmark to be here for this this meeting. So this is huge. This is worldwide. I think we, we suspect what’s going on. But I’d also like to thank the members of Congress who have supported our efforts to make this hearing happen. Some have even confided to me that they’ve had UFO sightings of their own.

00:13:16 Speaker 2

Those members, of course, some of them wish to remain anonymous, and I’ll keep it that way. But also, finally, I like to thank these three brave witnesses here. They took an oath. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution. United States and Dad Gummit they’re doing it.

00:13:29 Speaker 2

And we owe them a debt of gratitude.

00:13:45 Speaker 2

Y’all y’all quit clapping. You’re cutting in on.

00:13:47 Speaker 2

My time.

00:13:49 Speaker 2

Just kidding.

00:13:50 Speaker 2

These folks, they’ve got nothing to gain from this and I think you’re going to find out that they’ve endured quite a few slings.

00:13:56 Speaker 2

And arrows we need to remember them in our prayers and their families, and I’m thankful to them for their honest testimonies. They have done interviews and appeared in documentaries like Accidental Truth to get their stories out there to and and now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress.

00:14:12 Speaker 2

I it’s been so difficult to get here today. I’ve said, you know, in the Baptist Church, we’d say that the devil’s in our way and the devil has been in our way through this thing. We’ve we’ve run into roadblocks from members, from the intelligence community, the Pentagon. I proposed legislation to go in the FAA reauthorization that just said if a.

00:14:31 Speaker 2

If an airline pilot has a siding that when he makes that report to the FAA that it would come to Congress. But I was told that the intelligence community did not like that and the bill was and the amendment was not even heard and.

00:14:44 Speaker 2

Eddie, I think it’s time for this country to take back our country. We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us, that government we don’t work for them.

00:14:54 Speaker 2

And that’s exactly the point. This is an issue of government transparency. We can’t trust a government that does not trust its people. We’re not bringing little green men or flying saucers into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half y’all. We’re just going to get to the facts. We’re going to uncover the cover up, and I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people.

00:15:14 Speaker 2

Coming forward about this and I yield back the remainder of my time, I think is it to Representative Luna, Mr. Chairman or?

00:15:21 Speaker 1

Yeah, we’ll we’ll call him Miss Luna for her statement.

00:15:25 Speaker 3

Those circumstances surrounding UP’s has captivated the intention of the American people. For decades, ingraining even the minds of our nation’s leaders, from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to Chuck Schumer, John Radcliffe to National Security Council officials, yet from Roswell, NM to the coast of Jacksonville, FL.

00:15:45 Speaker 3

The sightings of UP’s have rarely been explained by the people who have first hand accounts of these situations.

00:15:50 Speaker 3

Actions. This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own governments and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of over classified documents that continue to be hidden from the American people. This isn’t just how I feel. In fact, the American people largely believe that the government has actively covered up the truth about UA.

00:16:11 Speaker 3

Fees 1 poll in particular found that 68% of Americans believe that the government is hiding information about UP’s and not being honest about what we know about them. And from my personal experience.

00:16:22 Speaker 3

I believe the.

00:16:23 Speaker 3

Good thing another poll found that nearly half Americans believe that the federal government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings. As Representative Burchett just referenced on the FA bill that just went through, you can tell that that’s exactly happening considering the thousands of testimonies and videos taken on people’s phones.

00:16:43 Speaker 3

And eyewitnesses accounts made by credible witnesses, such as doctors, pilots, scientists and active duty service members, is unacceptable to continue to gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening, or that the potential of intelligence intelligent life forms exist other than humans.

00:17:00 Speaker 3

Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are many of times service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their experiences in being an active duty service member working on airfield. I’ve had conversations with many pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for retribution and or being taken off flight status.

00:17:21 Speaker 3

How do we know this? Because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also done nothing to to calm the concerns of over 20% of Americans who have reported to.

00:17:30 Speaker 3

Have seen UFO?

00:17:31 Speaker 3

‘S or UA’s. We are simply told not to question the government and that the government has it under control. Today is the first hearing of its kind where we will attempt to get down to the.

00:17:40 Speaker 3

Bottom of what is actually happening with UA.

00:17:42 Speaker 3

Fees. But we will hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to Stonewall investigations.

00:17:50 Speaker 3

Just so that the press knows and the people know, we were even denied access to a classified briefing and a skiff prior to this hearing due the amount of hoops that we had to jump through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grush, who has knowledge of classified information, it is time to have an open minded discussion on this topic. To hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means, not just for our nation.

00:18:11 Speaker 3

For humanity, thank you, chairman. I yield back the rest of my time.

00:18:15 Speaker 1

Thank you very much and I’d like to thank you. Thank you and Mr. Burchett for bringing this topic to my attention. Now will recognize National Security subcommittee ranking member Garcia for 10 minutes.

00:18:30 Speaker 4

Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank first our witnesses for joining us today. I want to begin by thanking you all for your service to our country and for sharing your voices today and your courage to be here as well to Mr. Graves. I’m particularly grateful to you to spend some time that we had for you to share with candor some of your experiences. So I appreciate that.

00:18:50 Speaker 5

As well.

00:18:51 Speaker 4

I do wanna thank all the members of our subcommittee today and also those that are here and have waived on for the their incredible interest in this issue, particularly to Congressman Birchat. I know that your leadership has brought us to this place today and I want to thank you for for that as well as everyone else has been engaged in this work. I also want to thank the oversight staff who I know has been working very hard to ensure.

00:19:12 Speaker 4

Or that today’s hearing is serious, that it’s transparent and that it also provides appropriate answers as our oversight body always demands. Now it’s really important that we’re here in a bipartisan way to have this conversation, which really to the heart of it, is about national security. And key to the subcommittees, core purpose. This is the subcommittee.

00:19:32 Speaker 4

On national security of the Oversight Committee, now, our witnesses will testify today that AP’s have posed a serious safety threat and we must understand this more broadly. We’re dealing with real questions that get to the heart of our faith in.

00:19:45 Speaker 4

Government faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all time low. Partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy to doubt narrative or into or our institutions. But this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives building on years of reporting by both federal agencies and the independent media. Now some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking.

00:20:06 Speaker 4

2017 New York Times report which we, which revealed research as we know now on unidentified anomalous phenomena, as many call UFO’s by the Defense Intelligence Agency.

00:20:16 Speaker 4

Mr. Graves and Commander fevers experiences with the AP’s have also been documented by the public, not just by the New York Times but CNN and many other national news outlets. Now the office of the Director of National Intelligence has published public reports documenting UA P’s and on June 9th, 2022, NASA announced that the agency is commissioning a study.

00:20:36 Speaker 4

To of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena. Now, the sheer number of reports, whistleblowers, and stories of unidentified anonymous phenomena should raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight. And that’s why we are here today.

00:20:49 Speaker 4

Now pilots have reported encounters for years now because of the stigma around reporting these incidents, we still don’t have a complete picture of actually what’s going on, particularly as our witnesses will testify on the civilian side. And that is a real problem that we have today in the country. Now, it’s very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can come together.

00:21:09 Speaker 4

In a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner, if we were to advance oversight and public disclosure, we must also gain the broad support of the public. We will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process.

00:21:28 Speaker 4

Now I understand fully the Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft, our sensors and other sensitive material. At the same time, many people believe that we’re withholding information from them, and that is dangerous. Also, I believe in openness and transparency.

00:21:49 Speaker 4

That is also the role of Congress and I want to trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their.

00:21:56 Speaker 4

Mines. Now we have incidents where sensors, sometimes even multiple types of sensors detect things that we cannot explain UA’s. Whatever they may be, may pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft, and that must be understood now. My career in training as a long time and career educator and teacher and researcher.

00:22:16 Speaker 4

And tell me that we.

00:22:17 Speaker 4

Should never rule anything out.

00:22:19 Speaker 4

We know that our space, of course, is vast and undiscovered. I also want to note that Mister Sean Kirkpatrick, director of the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the component of the DoD office that investigates UDP data, has testified before the Senate this year that his unit has found no evidence of extra atrial activity. NASA has also stated they don’t have evidence.

00:22:40 Speaker 4

Of express real life either, and we’ve heard this, of course, from some of our government agencies. And we should remind viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important, that we also cannot share classified information in public settings. But questions, of course remain.

00:22:55 Speaker 4

That people want to see data and information for themselves, the enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique perspectives. Now I know I certainly have a lot of questions and I know that all the members of our committee do as well that we should come to this hearing with an open mind and we should not let our existing.

00:23:15 Speaker 4

Ideas restrict us on either side, I hear over and over from many agencies. The stigma around reporting and investigating AP’s.

00:23:23 Speaker 4

Prevents us from getting real answers. We know that whistleblowers have reported harassment, intimidation, or stigma as well, and this is not acceptable if people can’t report incidents which would have national security or safety implications, then that also has serious consequences for us. As ranking member of the Subcommittee, I know it’s my I know my job would be completely impossible.

00:23:42 Speaker 4

If whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this committee, we can’t be afraid of asking questions, and we can’t be afraid of the truth. I’m proud to say this, that this hearing builds upon bipartisan work by members of the House and Senate dating many years back, which is sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense.

00:23:58 Speaker 4

And more and to mandate more of Congress.

00:24:01 Speaker 4

Of UAP.

00:24:01 Speaker 4

‘S we know the Senate is taking up an amendment to their defense authorization bill, which will create a Commission with broad declassification authority, and we can now, should all agree that that is an important step. Members of both parties and senior officials and multiple administrations have taken an interest in this issue, and we’re proud to carry and build that.

00:24:18 Speaker 4

Confidence in the American people. This hearing will also not be the end of this discussion, but a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks, both in both in the public and within government, have been work.

00:24:30 Speaker 4

On we should encourage more reporting, not less on AP’s. The more they we understand, the safer we will be. We will hear testimony from witnesses today with the long record of service to the American people and with subject matter expertise, our witnesses have a unique opportunity to share the perspective insights and their experiences with the American people.

00:24:51 Speaker 4

And I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the facts.

00:24:57 Speaker 4

On behalf of our country, I also just want to say more broadly that we should look at this hearing with and believe that everything is on the table as it relates to UA’s, I think we an open mind is absolutely the best. I want to yield their their 2 1/2 minutes. The remainder of my time to the representative from.

00:25:13 Speaker 4

Florida Representative Moskowitz for an opening statement.

00:25:15 Speaker 4

He also has been.

00:25:16 Speaker 4

Very much engaged in this issue and I want to thank him for his leadership, congressman.

00:25:21 Speaker 6

Thank you, ranking member. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank Tim Burchett and Anna Paulina Luna for their leadership and pushing this hearing forward. I want to thank obviously committee staff and their staff working on this on a bipartisan.

00:25:35 Speaker 6

Basis because many Americans are deeply interested in this issue and it it shouldn’t take the potential of non human origin to bring us together. Addition, I wanna thank the witnesses for for coming forward to share your perspectives, your thoughts, your and the sightings of you AP’s. Unlike other hearings, many times in Congress, you’re not here to help a political party.

00:25:57 Speaker 6

But you’re here to share information with the American people.

00:26:01 Speaker 6

And it’s not something that is just going on in this administration, it’s something that’s spanned many administrations for decades. Many Americans have been fascinated by objects, mysterious and unexplained, and it’s long past time that they got some answers. The American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins.

00:26:20 Speaker 6

Non human intelligence and unexplainable phenomena.

00:26:24 Speaker 6

Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter.

00:26:27 Speaker 6

Count though that is a direct quote from Majority Leader Chuck Schumer that the American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non human intelligence and unexplainable phenomena. In an interview with Fox News, recent former director of National Intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed the US government is aware a lot more sightings.

00:26:48 Speaker 6

Of UAP.

00:26:48 Speaker 6

These and that they have not made that information public. I quote, There are a lot more sightings that have not been made public, Radcliffe said to Fox News. For me, this hearing is about transparency. We unfortunately live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions and over classification of information away from the American public.

00:27:09 Speaker 6

Or even Congress contributes to today’s politics. The American people have regular questions. What are you at peace? How come the media doesn’t report more on them? Are they foreign adversaries? Are they US technology? Are they something?

00:27:22 Speaker 6

Else they ask themselves, how come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones we have perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world. But when it comes to UA P’s nothing.

00:27:36 Speaker 6

Of course, we must always protect our national security to maintain our superiority, like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist, but were used in the Osama bin Laden raid in 2011.

00:27:49 Speaker 6

But we can’t allow that to be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truth.

00:27:58 Speaker 6

The American people deserve to hear more about special access programs. Congress has a right to know if there’s any unsanctioned weapons development.

00:28:06 Speaker 6

Satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress. Congress created the All Domain Resolution Office in the NDA of 2022. In its initial analysis, there are 171 uncharacterized UAP reports and this is the words from the report that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight.

00:28:27 Speaker 6

Characteristics or performance capabilities?

00:28:30 Speaker 6

I believe more information is known about the 171 instances.

00:28:34 Speaker 6

It’s time for Congress to reinsert ourselves. I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about U.

00:28:42 Speaker 6

AP’s.

00:28:44 Speaker 6

And to our military leaders, if there’s nothing to conceal, let Congress go to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, the Dugway Proving Ground, or even Groom Lake in Nevada, we should have disclosure today. We should have disclosure tomorrow. The time has come. Thank you, ranking member.

00:29:01 Speaker 4

Member thank you, Mr. Moskowitz, and I would yield back now to our.

00:29:05 Speaker 4

Chairman, thank you.

00:29:08 Speaker 1

Right now, I’d like to introduce our witnesses. Our first witness is Lieutenant Ryan Graves. He’s the executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. Lieutenant Graves is also a former U.S. Navy F18 pilot with the zone UUAP experience. The next witness, David Grush, is a former senior intelligence officer with the national.

00:29:28 Speaker 1

Geospatial Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical advisor.

00:29:32 Speaker 1

For UAP.

00:29:32 Speaker 1

Issues and finally, finally retired, Navy commander Commander David Fravor, Squadron Leader who worked as a naval aviator for 18 years. Mr. Flavor has his own UAP experience, known as the TikTok event. I look forward to hearing from all three of you today pursuant to committee rule.

00:29:53 Speaker 1

9 G the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands.

00:29:59 Speaker 1

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

00:30:08 Speaker 1

Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative, you may be seated. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony. I’ll remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please try to limit your oral statements to 5 minutes.

00:30:25 Speaker 1

As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it’s on and the Members can hear you. When you begin to speak the light in front of you will turn green. After 4 minutes, it will turn yellow and the red light. When that comes on, it tells you your 5 minutes have expired. I’ll now recognize Mr. Graves for 5 minutes for your opening statement.

00:30:46 Speaker 7

Thank you, Chairman Grothman, ranking member, Garcia distinguished members of the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, Representative Burchett, and Luna.

00:30:56 Speaker 7

My name is Ryan Fobs Graves and I’m a former F18 pilot with a decade of service in the US Navy, including two deployments and Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Inherent Resolve. I have experience advanced AP first hand and I’m here to voice the concerns of more than 30 commercial air crew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me.

00:31:15 Speaker 7

Today I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action.

00:31:19 Speaker 7

As we convene here, U AP are in our airspace, but they are grossly underreported. These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine military air crew and commercial pilots, trained observers whose lives depend on accurate identification are frequently witnessing these phenomenon.

00:31:36 Speaker 7

The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses and is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony.

00:31:51 Speaker 7

Parts of our government are aware of more about UP than they let on, but excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden. Since 2021, all UDP videos are classified as secret or above this level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding, but fuel speculation and mistrust.

00:32:08 Speaker 7

In 2014, I was an F18 Foxtrot pilot in the Navy Fighter Attack Squadron 11 the Red Rippers.

00:32:15 Speaker 7

And I was stationed at Nas Oceana in Virginia Beach after upgrades were made to our Jets radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace.

00:32:25 Speaker 7

At first we assume they are radar errors, but soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems. Eventually through visual ID.

00:32:36 Speaker 7

During a training mission in warning Area Whiskey, 7210 miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, 2F18 Super Hornets were split by UA.

00:32:43 Speaker 7

P the object described as a dark Gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 feet of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be 5 to 15 feet in diameter. The mission commander terminated the flight immediately.

00:32:55 Speaker 7

And returned base. Our squadron submitted a safety report, but there was no official acknowledgment of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings.

00:33:04 Speaker 7

Soon these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular pre flight briefs.

00:33:13 Speaker 7

Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace. The organization has since become a haven for UP witnesses who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process. More than 30 witnesses have come forward and almost 5000 Americans have joined us in the fight for transparency as safe aerospace dot.

00:33:32 Speaker 7

The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots that majority major airlines. Often they are veterans with decades of flying experience. Pilots are reporting AP altitudes that appear above them at 40,000 feet, potentially in low Earth orbit or in the Gray zone below the.

00:33:46 Speaker 7

Carbon line.

00:33:47 Speaker 7

Making unexplainable maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits, or J.

00:33:53 Speaker 7

Sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the north of Atlanta.

00:34:00 Speaker 7

Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP encounters in our airspace.

00:34:05 Speaker 7

And oceans, the most compelling involved observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so.

00:34:17 Speaker 7

In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this top.

00:34:20 Speaker 7

If everyone could see the sensor and video data eyewitnessed, our national conversation would change. I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue of this topic.

00:34:29 Speaker 7

Represents if you appear foreign drones, it is an urgent national security problem. If it is something else is an issue for science. In either case, unidentified objects are concerned for flight.

00:34:40 Speaker 7

Safety the American people deserve to know what is happening in our skies. It is long overdue. Thank you.

00:34:49 Speaker 1

Mr. rush.

00:34:54 Speaker 9

Mr. Chairman, ranking members and Congressman, thank you. I’m happy to be here. This is an important issue and I’m grateful for your time. My name is David Charles grush. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years in the both in the US Air Force, both active duty Air National Guard and reserve at the rank of major.

00:35:13 Speaker 9

And most recently, from 2021 to 2025, or excuse me, 2023 at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, NGA, at the GS15 civilian level, which is the military equivalent of a full bird Colonel.

00:35:29 Speaker 9

I was my agency’s Co lead and unidentified anomalous phenomena and trans medium object analysis, as well as reporting to EU AP task force, UA PTF, and eventually once it was established, the All domain Anomaly Resolution Office arrow.

00:35:45 Speaker 9

I became a whistleblower through a PPD 19 urgent concern filing in May 2022 with the intelligence community Inspector General.

00:35:57 Speaker 9

Following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence community individuals that the US government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight with regards to UAP’s, my testimony is based on information I’ve been given by individuals with a long standing.

00:36:19 Speaker 9

Track record of legitimacy and service to this country.

00:36:24 Speaker 9

Many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography, official documentation and classified oral testimony, to myself and many my various colleagues.

00:36:35 Speaker 9

I have taken every step I can to collaborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the AP Task force and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it. This is because of these steps, I believe strongly in the importance of bringing this information before you. I am driven by a commitment of both.

00:36:55 Speaker 9

To truth and transparency rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people.

00:37:05 Speaker 9

I’m asking Congress to hold our government to this standard and thoroughly investigate these claims.

00:37:11 Speaker 9

But as I stand here Underoath now, I am speaking to the facts as I’ve been told them.

00:37:16 Speaker 9

In the US Air Force in my National Reconnaissance Office, NRO reservist capacity, I was a member of the AP Task Force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the Entero Operations Center on the directors briefing staff, which included the coordination of the presidential daily brief and supporting variety of contingency operations, which I was the reserve.

00:37:38 Speaker 9

Intelligence division chief back up.

00:37:42 Speaker 9

In 2019, the UAP Task Force director.

00:37:46 Speaker 9

Asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs, also known as saps and caps. We needed to satisfy our congressionally mandated mission and we were direct report at the time to the depth sector.

00:38:02 Speaker 9

At the time, due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties, I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust, both in my military and civilian capacities, I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi decade UA.

00:38:21 Speaker 9

He crash retrieval and reverse engineering program.

00:38:26 Speaker 9

To which I was denied access to those additional read ONS when I requested it.

00:38:32 Speaker 9

I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my superior superiors and multiple inspectors general and in effect becoming a whistleblower.

00:38:43 Speaker 9

As you know, I’ve suffered retaliation for my decision, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency. Thank you and I’m happy.

00:38:55 Speaker 9

To answer your questions.

00:38:57 Speaker 1

Thank you, commander. Favor favor.

00:39:03 Speaker 10

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Cartman. Congresswoman.

00:39:08 Speaker 10

I want to 1st thank you for the invitation to speak to the Committee on the AP topic that’s been in the news for the past six years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum.

00:39:16 Speaker 10

As you know, my name is David Fraver. I’m retired commander in the United States Navy in 2004, I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41, the world famous Black Aces. They’re a test to carrying 11. Stationed on board the USS Nimitz and have begun A2 month work up cycle off the coast of California.

00:39:32 Speaker 10

On this day, we were scheduled for A2V2 aired air training with the USS.

00:39:35 Speaker 10

Princeton as our control.

00:39:37 Speaker 10

When we launched off newitz, my wingman was joining up. We were told that the training was going to be suspended and we were doing. We’re going to proceed with real world tasking.

00:39:47 Speaker 10

As we proceeded to the West, the Air Controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to and we were.

00:39:51 Speaker 10

Unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived.

00:39:57 Speaker 10

There, the controller told us that these objects had been observed for over 2 weeks coming down from over 80,000 feet, rapidly descending to 20,000 feet, hanging out for hours and then going straight back up. For those don’t realize above 80,000.

00:40:10 Speaker 10

Feet is space.

00:40:12 Speaker 10

We arrived at the location at approximately 20,000 feet in the controller called Merge Plot, which means that our radar blip was now in the same resolution cell as the contact.

00:40:20 Speaker 10

As we looked around, we noticed that we saw some white water off our right side. It’s important to note that the weather on this day was as close to perfect as you could ask for off the coast of San Diego, clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no white caps from waves. So the white water stood.

00:40:33 Speaker 10

Out in a large blue ocean.

00:40:35 Speaker 10

All four of us, because we were F18 F so we had pilots and window in the back seat looked down a small saw white tic TAC object with a longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball. There were no rotors, no rotor wash or any sign of visible control surfaces like.

00:40:52 Speaker 10

Wings as we started clockwise towards the object, my wisdom and I decided to go down and take a closer look with the other aircraft staying in high cover to observe.

00:40:59 Speaker 10

Both us and the tic.

00:41:00 Speaker 10

Tac, we proceeded around the circle about 90 degrees from the start of our descent and the object objects suddenly shifted its longitudinal axis. Aligned it with my aircraft and began to climb.

00:41:13 Speaker 10

We continued down another 270 degrees nose low where the Tic TAC we considered 270 degrees to where and we went nose load where the tic TAC would have been our altitude at this point is about 15,000 feet and the tic TAC was about 12,000. As we pulled those out of the object within about a half a mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared our wingmen roughly 8000 feet above us.

00:41:34 Speaker 10

Lost contact also, we immediately turned back to see where the white water was at and.

00:41:39 Speaker 10

It was gone.

00:41:39 Speaker 10

Also, so as you started to turn back towards the East, the controller came up and said, Sir, you’re not going to believe this, but that thing is at your cap point, roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute.

00:41:48 Speaker 10

You can calculate the speed we returned to Nimitz. We were taking off our gear, we were talking to one of my cruisers, getting ready to launch. We mentioned it to him and they went out and luckily got the video that you see that 92nd video. What you don’t see is the radar tape that was never released and we don’t know where it’s at of the active jamming that the object could on an APG 73.

00:42:06 Speaker 10

Radar and I can get into modes later if you’re interested.

00:42:09 Speaker 10

What is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated. None of my crew ever questioned, and tapes were never taken and after a couple days it turned into a great story with friends. It wasn’t until 2009 till Jay Stratton had contacted me to investigate. Unbeknownst Hall, he was part of the 8 tip program and the Pentagon, led by Louis Zondo.

00:42:27 Speaker 10

And there was an unofficial official report that came out that’s now on.

00:42:29 Speaker 10

The Internet years later, I was contacted by the other pilot, Alex Dietrich, and asked if I’d been contacted and I said no, but I’m willing to talk.

00:42:37 Speaker 10

I was contacted by Mr. Elizondo and we talked for a short period of time and he said we’d be in contact a few weeks after that I was made aware that you had left the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom Delong, Chris, Mel and Steve Justice and others to form two Stars, Academy and organization. At pressed the issue with leading industry experts and U.S. government officials. They worked with Leslie Keane, who was present today. Rob Blumenthal and Helene.

00:42:59 Speaker 10

Cooper to publish the articles in the New York Times, 2017 New York Times.

00:43:04 Speaker 10

And it removed the stigma on the topic of UFO’s, which is why we’re here today. Those articles open the door for the government and public that cannot be closed. It has led to an interest from our elected officials who are not focused on little green men, but figure out where these craft are, where they from the technology that they possess, how do they operate? It also led to the Whistleblower Protection Act in the NDA.

00:43:25 Speaker 10

There are multiple witnesses coming forward to say that have first hand knowledge and and Mr. Grush just covered that. What concerns me is that there’s no oversight from our elected officials on anything associated with our government processing or working on craft.

00:43:37 Speaker 10

Believe not from this world, this issue is not a full public disclosure that could undermine national security, but is about ensuring that our system of checks and balances works across all work done in the government using taxpayer funds relative to government programs, even unacknowledged way programs have some level of oversight by the appropriate committee members in the House and Senate. And this work that is said to be occurring from whistleblower testimonies.

00:43:58 Speaker 10

Should not be.

00:43:59 Speaker 10

In closing, I would like to say that the tic TAC object we engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on time have today or looking to develop in the next 10 years if we in fact have programs that possess this technology and needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected in office to represent what is best for the United States and best for the citizens. I thank you for your time.

00:44:20 Speaker 10

Thank you very much.

00:44:21 Speaker 1

Thank you very much. I know it’s very difficult for all of you all you’ve done. They asked to try to eliminate this issue, call myself first for some questions. I’m going to start with Mr. Graves. Are your pilots or pilots that you interact with as part of your organization? Do you feel adequately trained and briefed on how to handle encounters with AP?

00:44:41 Speaker 7

No. Right now, military witnesses to UAPB have limited options for reporting UAP, but more, more concerning is that commercial aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons that the military has implemented. The military and department defense has stated that UA P represent a critical aviation safety.

00:45:01 Speaker 7

Risk we have not seen that that same that same language being used in the commercial markets. They are not acknowledging this risk.

00:45:09 Speaker 1

OK, what steps do you think have to be taken to improve a pilot CAP report?

00:45:14 Speaker 1

Be it military or commercial.

00:45:16 Speaker 7

Right now we need a system where pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs. There is a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to professional repercussions, either through management or perhaps through their yearly physical check. So having a secure system, reducing the stigma and making this available.

00:45:34 Speaker 7

This information, available through the public is going to reduce the concerns that air crew have.

00:45:39 Speaker 1

Please give me a little idea that the degree to which reports in the past are are not made public right now.

00:45:46 Speaker 7

Well, I don’t think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report them. So to answer your question, I think there is a dearth of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time.

00:45:57 Speaker 1

Could you tell me why you believe it’s?

00:46:00 Speaker 1

Kind of play the devil’s advocate. A reason why some of this stuff should not be available to the public.

00:46:06 Speaker 7

There’s certainly some national security concerns when we use our advanced sensors and our tactical jets to be able to identify these these objects. However, there’s no reason that the objects themselves would be classified. I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different nuances of how this topic is classified from the from the perspective of AP.

00:46:26 Speaker 7

And not national security.

00:46:28 Speaker 1

I’ll give you a follow up on that, assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public, this has been around for a long period of time. Can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to UAP’s say 15 years and back should not be immediately made public?

00:46:51 Speaker 9

I think 1 of it is acknowledging of vulnerability, both from a collection and I’ll just say a, you know, countermeasure perspective. So it’s a no, we haven’t cracked for many years. Yeah.

00:47:00 Speaker 1

We’ll always save.

00:47:02 Speaker 1

Even, say 20 years back, is there any reason why when you go back that far thing shouldn’t?

00:47:06 Speaker 1

Be made public.

00:47:09 Speaker 9

Unless it shows a specific national security vulnerability as it relates to a weakness in particular defences.

00:47:14

OK.

00:47:15 Speaker 1

OK. Mr. Flavor, the tic Tac incident that you and that with that you were engaged occurred in 2004. What kind of reporting took place after that incident?

00:47:25 Speaker 10

None. We had a standard debrief where the back seaters went down to our carrier Intel Center and briefed what had happened and that was it. No one else talked to us and I was in the top 20 in.

00:47:36 Speaker 10

The battle group no one came.

00:47:38 Speaker 10

That captain was aware the Admiral was aware nothing was done.

00:47:41 Speaker 1

Your commanding officers provide any sort of justification.

00:47:45 Speaker 10

No, because I was the commanding officer of the squadron. So no.

00:47:47

OK.

00:47:49 Speaker 1

Was this incident the only AP event that you encountered while you were a pilot?

00:47:55 Speaker 10

Yes, it was.

00:47:56 Speaker 1

OK, this is for any one of you based on based off of each of your experiences and observations, do you believe UA P’s pose a potential threat to our national security?

00:48:10 Speaker 10

Yes, and here’s why the the technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had.

00:48:18 Speaker 10

And you could put that anywhere if you if you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work. You’re talking. Something can go into space, go someplace. Drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants. And.

00:48:32 Speaker 10

And there’s nothing we can do about it. Nothing.

00:48:35 Speaker 1

OK, either the other you too.

00:48:37 Speaker 7

I would also like to add from commercial aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with uncertainty in our operating space. As a matter of of our protection. Professional actions, identifying friend from foe is is very important to us. And so when we have unidentified targets and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or fear of what it could be.

00:48:57 Speaker 7

That’s an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of.

00:48:59 Speaker 1

What? What, what?

00:49:00 Speaker 1

Steps should be taken to better understand and respond to UA P encounters in the interest of national security.

00:49:06 Speaker 7

There needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing and there needs to be a two way communication loop, so the operators on the front end have a feedback and can can get best practices on how to process information, what to do and to ensure that they they their reporting is being listened to. Right now there is not a lot.

00:49:24 Speaker 7

Of back and forth.

00:49:25 Speaker 1

Mr. Grush and your complained to the intelligence community inspector. You, Inspector General. You claim that you believe information is being hidden. What kind of information do you think was hidden? And do you?

00:49:35 Speaker 1

Think it should remain hidden.

00:49:37 Speaker 9

Yes, I can speak to that very briefly in unclassified manner. As you know, the preponderance in my complaint was classified to the intelligence communities, both material acquisition and exploitation activity also baselining the UA’s but not sharing it with you know intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs of pilots.

00:49:57 Speaker 9

That that kind of information.

00:49:59 Speaker 1

Yeah. OK. Thank you very much. Now we’ll order Mr. Garcia.

00:50:03 Speaker 4

Thank you. Again, thank you all for your service and for testifying today. Wanna just talk about the UA’s relates to what we’re seeing in the pilots interaction with AP’s, particularly Mr. Graves, one of the think concerns that for Members of this committee is this idea that pilots there’s no system that actually report UA’s and the stigma around pilots and so.

00:50:22 Speaker 4

Could you can you?

00:50:23 Speaker 4

And just briefly, you mentioned there you working with 30 pilots right now that have encounters with AP’s, but you’ve also, I believe I’m discussed and you know of many more pilots. This is just those that you’re currently working with, is that correct?

00:50:35 Speaker 4

Can you expand on that?

00:50:37 Speaker 7

Certainly I’ll break that down in two ways.

00:50:39 Speaker 7

1st, when we were first experiencing these objects off the eastern seaboard in the 2014 to 2015 time period, anyone that had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects. So there was a large number of my colleagues that were detecting these objects off the eastern seaboard. They were further correlating that information with the other onboard sensors, and many of them also had their own.

00:51:00 Speaker 7

Eye sightings as well of these objects. Now, that was our personal first first hand experience at the time. Since then, as I’ve engaged this topic, others have reached out to me that share their experiences both on the military side as well as the commercial aviation.

00:51:15 Speaker 7

On the military aviation side, veterans that have recently got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the objects we are seeing in 2014, 2015 continued all the way to 2019-2020 and beyond. And so it became a generational issue for naval aviators on the eastern seaboard. This was something we were briefing to new students. This is something that was included in the notice to airmen.

00:51:36 Speaker 7

To ensure that there was no accidents.

00:51:40 Speaker 7

And now, with commercial aviators, they’re reaching out because they’re having somewhat similar experiences as our military brothers and sisters, but they do not have any reporting system that they can send this to.

00:51:50 Speaker 4

And let me just add to and both to to Mr. Flavor as well as Mr. Grace not having this system for, for reporting, would you both agree that it’s harmful to not just our national security interest, but to understand this phenomenon of what’s happening with AP’s?

00:52:06 Speaker 10

I think it’s it’s, it’s a, it’s actually it’s a travesty that we don’t have a system to correlate this and actually investigate, you know? So if you took the East Coast, you know, there’s there’s there’s coastal radars out there that monitor our air Defense identification zone. So out to 200 miles.

00:52:23 Speaker 10

They can track these, you know. So when you see them, they could actually go and pull that data and and get maneuvering and and instead of just having the airplanes, there’s other data sources out there.

00:52:32 Speaker 10

And I’ve talked to other government officials on this. So you need a centrally located repository that these reports go to. So if you just stuck it in DoD, you wouldn’t get anything out of the intelligence committee because they have a tendency to not to talk. But if you had a central location where these reports would come in, not just military but also commercial aviation because there’s a lot of that going on, especially if you talk to anyone that flies from here to Hawaii over the Pacific.

00:52:52 Speaker 10

You see odd lights, so I think you need to develop something that allows you a central point to collect the data in order to.

00:53:00 Speaker 4

Investigate Mr. graves.

00:53:02 Speaker 7

I would concur with everything Mr. Fraver said. I’ll continue to say that the commercial pilots that have reached out to me through Americans for safe Aerospace are doing so because they don’t feel there’s another way for them.

00:53:11 Speaker 4

To report this safety issue, and I think one of the clear outcomes of this hearing already is that there has to be a safe and transparent reporting process for pilots, both on the commercial side and the military.

00:53:22 Speaker 4

Got to be able to report UA’s in a way that’s also transparent, but also understands the scope of our of our national security interests and what may be classified or not. But I think there has to be some sort of system and so that’s something that I hope can be an outcome that this committee can can work on.

00:53:38 Speaker 4

Is there anything else for just for the two of you, briefly beyond the supporting system that you think that we can do as a government to encourage, facilitate more civilian reporting on the civilian? OK, great.

00:53:47 Speaker 7

I think we’re doing it.

00:53:48 Speaker 7

Right.

00:53:48 Speaker 7

Now I think this hearing is is going to show the American people that their government takes this topic seriously.

00:53:53 Speaker 4

And how and and how about civilians that may not be pilots. What kind of process could be in place for civilians who are not pilots, who may have UA P encounters? Do either of you have any suggestions that could facilitate?

00:54:04 Speaker 7

My recommendations would make would be to make that a sense a sensor centric operation in order to make it as objective.

00:54:11 Speaker 4

As possible. OK, Sir, Mr. favor.

00:54:14 Speaker 10

I agree with Mr. Graves on.

00:54:15 Speaker 4

That OK, just just just briefly, I also just want to note for particularly for the 2 pilots and the question for Mr. Rush, one of the things that I found fascinating in our discussion.

00:54:24 Speaker 4

Graves last night as well as it but you both described UAP’s and formations and the way they have they they they are observed in space or or in our air. And the way that they move is essentially.

00:54:38 Speaker 4

Ways in which current technology or aircraft that we know of are unable to actually function or move, and so will you just for the public record. Again, once once again, just briefly just either describe or note that aircraft that we witnessed, particularly by the 30 folks that you’re working with are essentially outside the scope of anything that we know of today in the technology we have today, Mr. Graves.

00:55:00 Speaker 4

Mr. faver.

00:55:01 Speaker 7

Yes, the objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are performing maneuvers that are unexplainable due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country, and that applies for the military as well.

00:55:13 Speaker 4

Mr. Mr. Mr.

00:55:15 Speaker 10

Yeah, I concur with that. We have nothing that can stop in mid air and go the other direction, nor do we have anything that can like in our situation come down from space, hang out for three.

00:55:23 Speaker 4

Hours and go back up. Thank you. My last question and and sometimes I know some you have also said some of these answers in the past. We’re trying to get them on the public record as well, which is really important. Mr. Gresh. Finally, do you believe that our government is in possession of UA’s?

00:55:36 Speaker 9

Absolutely. Based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over four years.

00:55:41 Speaker 4

And and and where.

00:55:42 Speaker 9

I know the exact locations and and those locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees. I actually had the people with the first hand knowledge provide a protected disclosure to the Inspector General.

00:55:56 Speaker 4

Thank you. And Mr. Chairman, I would just say I think that these questions are important questions and I look forward to being involved in the process to get those answered. I know will be a lot of questions for the committee members.

00:56:05 Speaker 4

Yield back.

00:56:06 Speaker 1

Thank you. We’ll go to Mr. Birchard himself.

00:56:09 Speaker 2

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Garcia. I would like to have you on the my legislation to do just that on the on the reporting and we’ll get together on that. Maybe you could be my Co sponsor on that. That’d be really cool. Thank you for those great questions.

00:56:27 Speaker 2

Mr. Graves? Again. I’d like to know, how do you know that these were?

00:56:31 Speaker 2

Not our aircraft.

00:56:34 Speaker 7

Some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area, we would see these objects being at 0.0 mock, that’s zero airspeed over a certain pieces of the ground. So what that means, just like a river, if you throw a bobber in, it’s going to float downstream. These objects were staying completely stationary, and category 4 hurricane winds. These same objects would then accelerate.

00:56:55 Speaker 7

The supersonic speeds 1.11.2 Mach, and they would do so in very erratic and and quick behaviors that we don’t. I don’t have an explanation.

00:57:03 Speaker 2

For have you spoken to commercial and military pilots that have seen these off of our East Coast?

00:57:11 Speaker 7

I have.

00:57:15 Speaker 2

Mr. Fiber, I noticed that in the Tic TAC video, it’s tic tac like the candy, not TikTok, like the Chinese Communist app. That’s correct. Yes, Sir. I just want to make that because my daughter corrected me on that.

00:57:33 Speaker 2

Called me a boomer and said hey, Boomer and I said no baby, it’s tic tac like the candy. You’re going to have to just look it up and. But now I would like to like to say today is a is a day of many first, it’s a miracle that we’re.

00:57:45 Speaker 2

In this this meeting, and it’s also a miracle that my wife has put up with me for 9 years today. Today is my anniversary. So I want to tell my wife happy anniversary and that I love her very much as she likes to say this nine years have been the best two years of her life. So thank you, Mr. favor.

00:58:06 Speaker 2

What? What astonished you the most about the the flight capabilities of these tic TAC very briefly.

00:58:14 Speaker 10

The performance.

00:58:15 Speaker 10

Absolute performance it was.

00:58:17 Speaker 2

And and you’re you’re not aware of any other objects that anybody in the world has in this world that has those capabilities.

00:58:24 Speaker 10

No, I think it’s far beyond actually our material science that we currently possess.

00:58:30 Speaker 2

Are you aware of any other reconnaissance platforms that have tracked or recorded the tic Tacs maneuvers? Maybe the NORAD system or any of the others?

00:58:37 Speaker 10

I am not OK.

00:58:38 Speaker 2

Mr. grish.

00:58:40 Speaker 2

Thank you for being here, brother. Thank you all very much. Have you faced any retaliation or approvals for any of your testimony or anything?

00:58:50 Speaker 2

On these lines.

00:58:51 Speaker 9

Yeah, I have to be careful what I say in detail because there is an open whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf and I don’t wanna compromise that investigation by providing anything that may.

00:59:04 Speaker 9

Help provide somebody’s information, but it was very brutal and very unfortunate. Some of the tactics they use.

00:59:12 Speaker 9

Is to hurt me both professionally and personally, to be quite frank, yeah.

00:59:17 Speaker 2

It’s very unfortunate, as they say, when you’re over the target, that’s when they do the most by firing at you. Do you have any personal knowledge of people have been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology?

00:59:32 Speaker 2

Personally, have you heard? Have anyone been murdered that you would think that you know of or have heard of? I guess.

00:59:39 Speaker 9

I have to be careful asking that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities.

00:59:46 Speaker 2

Get it? Get in a confidential area skiff. We could talk about that, but unfortunately, we were denied access to the skiff.

00:59:57 Speaker 2

And that’s very unfortunate in this in this scenario.

01:00:03 Speaker 2

Mr. favor.

01:00:05 Speaker 2

Do you believe that you witnessed an additional object under the water in relation to your encounter?

01:00:11 Speaker 10

I will say we did not see an object. There was something there to cause the white water and when we turned around it was gone.

01:00:16 Speaker 10

So there was something there that obviously moved.

01:00:19 Speaker 2

OK, it was it was not the same object though that you were. You were looking at, correct?

01:00:23 Speaker 10

No, we actually joked that the tic TAC was communicating with something. When we came back and because of white water disappeared.

01:00:30 Speaker 2

We were in, in another instance, we’re told about the capabilities of of a jammer.

01:00:36 Speaker 2

During viewing of some when there were some people chasing some of these objects, did you experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or weapon system?

01:00:45 Speaker 10

My crew that launched after we landed experienced significant jamming to the PG 73 radar, which was what we had on board, which is a mechanically scan, very high end system prior to the PG 79. And yes, it did pretty much everything you could do range, velocity, aspect and then it fit the lock and the targeting pod is passive. That’s where we’re.

01:01:04 Speaker 10

Able to get the video on.

01:01:05 Speaker 2

I’m about to run out of time, but are you aware of any of our enemies that have that capability?

01:01:11 Speaker 2

OK. I would also like to note for the record that like George Knapp Breaking Area 51, he’s the reason I knew about that. And the reason I know about the the tic Tacs is is Leslie Kane from New York Times article and I would encourage everybody to read that.

01:01:28 Speaker 2

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, you’re back to you for? No.

01:01:30 Speaker 1

Time. Very good, Mr. Raskin.

01:01:33 Speaker 11

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Graves, you reported U AP encounters during training flights, I think and have since come forward to warn the Pentagon that these encounters may be putting pilots at risk.

01:01:53 Speaker 11

My first question is you’ve identified these as taking place on the East Coast. Is it just on the East Coast where these encounters have been?

01:02:03 Speaker 7

Reported no since the events initially occurred, I’ve learned that the objects have been detected essentially, where all operations Navy operations are being conducted across the world, and that’s from the ultimate Anomaly Resolutions Office reporting.

01:02:19 Speaker 11

Can you describe your experience after you decided to come forward and go?

01:02:24 Speaker 11

Look with your experience.

01:02:27 Speaker 7

Certainly, like many others in 2017, I saw the New York Times article come out as well, and for me it was. It was special because I recognized the voices on the video. I recognized the video itself. I had seen it when it was taken. I seen it when it was debriefed, and so that was kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing.

01:02:48 Speaker 7

And so I reached out to colleagues back on the East Coast and realized that this was still a safety risk, that they were dealing with, that they had essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation. It was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward myself.

01:03:03 Speaker 11

Are there common characteristics to the UA’s that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions?

01:03:11 Speaker 7

Is certainly we were primarily seeing dark Gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere.

01:03:17 Speaker 11

I’m sorry. Dark Gray or black cubes.

01:03:20 Speaker 7

Yes, inside of a clear sphere where the apex or tips of the cube we’re touching the inside of that sphere and that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects that occurred over almost eight years. And as far as I.

01:03:33 Speaker 7

Know is still occurring.

01:03:37 Speaker 11

So I take it that you’re arguing what we need is real transparency in a reporting system, so we can get some clarity on what’s going on out there because there are many pilots in your situation, but we should have a a way of developing A systematic inventory of all of such encounters.

01:03:57 Speaker 11

Is that?

01:03:57 Speaker 7

Right. Yes. And I think we need both transparency and the reporting we have the reporting, but we need to make sure that information could be propagated to commercial aviation as well as the rest of the populace.

01:04:07 Speaker 11

Mr. grush. What? What about you? What was your experience after you came forward?

01:04:12 Speaker 9

Well, it’s only been about two months or so. So I guess my experience has been, yeah, overwhelming support from former colleagues of mine that have, you know, privately messaged me and and I do appreciate that. But I I do have knowledge of.

01:04:28 Speaker 9

Active planned reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues, and it’s very, very upsetting to.

01:04:33 Speaker 11

Me coming from where?

01:04:36 Speaker 9

Certain senior leadership at previous agencies that was associated with.

01:04:41 Speaker 9

And that’s all I’ll say publicly, but I can provide more details in a.

01:04:43 Speaker 11

Closed environment. OK, well, I I hope you understand that there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt to vilify, demonize, or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective.

01:05:01 Speaker 9

Yeah, there were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally, administratively attacked. And it, you know, actually makes me very upset.

01:05:07 Speaker 9

As a leader to see that happen to other coworkers and actually superiors of mine over the last three.

01:05:13 Speaker 11

Years. How do you account for that response that that seems like a bizarre response?

01:05:17 Speaker 9

I call it administrative terrorism. That’s their their quiver.

01:05:21 Speaker 9

Their tool in.

01:05:21 Speaker 9

The toolbox to silence people, especially, you know, the career government service.

01:05:27 Speaker 9

Cares about their career, cares about their clearance, their reputation to climb the ladder, and when you threaten that flow career path, a lot of people back off.

01:05:38 Speaker 9

But I’m here to represent those people so.

01:05:42 Speaker 11

Mr. fraver. What? What about you? What has your experience been since you’ve come forward with your perspective on this?

01:05:50 Speaker 10

Actually, I’ve been treated very well and the six people that were involved, myself included, all of them have or will be retiring from the military is 0500 sixes. And all my friends that are very senior three and four stars. I’ve talked to them, they they believe they they understand there’s a problem. But no, I’ve I was actually.

01:06:07 Speaker 10

Treated really well and.

01:06:10 Speaker 11

And what is your general interpretation?

01:06:14 Speaker 11

Of these phenomena, or what is your current thinking and trying to make sense of?

01:06:20 Speaker 10

Them. Well, I’ll say, you know, I’m not like a UFO fanatic. It’s not. It’s not me, but I will tell you that what we saw with four sets of eyes over a 5 minute period, still there’s nothing. We have nothing.

01:06:35 Speaker 10

Close to it, it was. It was amazing to see. I told my buddy I wanted to fly it, but yeah, it’s just an incredible technology.

01:06:42 Speaker 11

All right, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I’ll yield.

01:06:44 Speaker 11

Back to you.

01:06:47 Speaker 1

Thanks. My name is Luna.

01:06:50 Speaker 3

Mr. Grush, in speaking to you yesterday, I just wanted to follow up on representative Raskins’s questions.

01:07:00 Speaker 3

In the last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear?

01:07:05 Speaker 3

For your life, for addressing these issues.

01:07:08 Speaker 9

Yes, personally.

01:07:10 Speaker 3

I just want everyone to note that he’s coming forward in fear of his life to put in perspective, if they were really not scared about this information coming out, why would someone be intimidated like?

01:07:21 Speaker 3

To your knowledge, our NHS is working with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs.

01:07:30 Speaker 9

I don’t have data on that, I’m not sure.

01:07:32 Speaker 3

Have you heard or you had people come forward to present that evidence?

01:07:37 Speaker 9

Not that particular evidence that you just espoused.

01:07:40 Speaker 3

OK. On the 19th of April, Dr. Kirkpatrick, head of Arrow, had said that he did not find any evidence of UP’s. You also stated that you had in your interview that you had briefed him on information that you were uncovering, but that he did not follow up with you were the items that you divulged to him pertain to national security?

01:07:59 Speaker 9

Yes, him and I had a classified conversation in April 2022 before he took over Arrow in the July 2/20/22, and I provided him some concerns I had.

01:08:11 Speaker 3

Do you know why he?

01:08:11 Speaker 3

Might not have followed up with you.

01:08:15 Speaker 9

Unfortunately, I cannot read his mind. I wish he did. I was I was happy to give Sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the the helm of Arrow.

01:08:24 Speaker 3

OK. And then?

01:08:25 Speaker 3

My last question for you before I move to Mr. Graves, is you received prior approval from the Defense Department to speak on certain issues, correct.

01:08:33 Speaker 9

Correct. Through adopter DoD pre publication and Security review and I just want to remind the public, they’re just looking from a security perspective. These are my own personal views and opinions, not the departments.

01:08:46 Speaker 3

OK, I’m I’m asking that though, mainly because I think that there are many people that would like to discredit you. So it does bring a certain amount of credibility.

01:08:54 Speaker 3

To your testimony.

01:08:54 Speaker 9

I’m required by law to do that. As a former intelligence officer or I go to jail for revealing classified information. Yeah.

01:09:00 Speaker 3

Yeah, we don’t want you to go to jail. My next question would actually be for Mr. Graves. Can you please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at Vandenberg Air Force Base?

01:09:13 Speaker 7

Certainly in the 2003 time frame, a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large 100 yard sighted Red Square approach to the base from the ocean.

01:09:32 Speaker 7

And hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains.

01:09:42 Speaker 7

There was a similar event within 24 hours later in the evening. This was a morning event, I believe 8:45 in the morning. Later in the Evening Post sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base, including some aggressive behaviors. These objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off.

01:10:02 Speaker 7

And this is information that was received through one of the witnesses that have approached me at Americans for Safe Aerospace.

01:10:08 Speaker 3

Was this documented in any official form? Whether it was a police blotter?

01:10:12 Speaker 7

Yes, they had official documentation and records from the event that they witnessed held over the year.

01:10:18 Speaker 3

And I’m not going to ask you to do it right now for time reasons, but you would be able to sketch what was when it’s correct and you’ve have you seen that before on any other?

01:10:25 Speaker 3

Equipment and door during your flight time.

01:10:27 Speaker 7

I have not seen what they’ve described. This object was estimated to be almost the size of a football field and I have not seen anything personally that.

01:10:35 Speaker 3

Large. OK. And then another question on follow up referencing the gimbal video go fast incident. Can you just clarify because to our understanding the footage was actually cut off at a certain point, but what happens at the end of that video just?

01:10:47 Speaker 3

For those Americans specifically there that are wanting to know about the.

01:10:50 Speaker 7

Rest of that footage, certainly there was some uncertainty or, you know, instability with the object it it seemed to rock a bit and that’s the last last I had seen in the video, much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data that would provide precise kinematics on the object as well as the fleet of objects that are operating nearby.

01:11:09 Speaker 3

OK. And follow.

01:11:10 Speaker 3

Up in regards to the reporting procedures that Mister Garcia had addressed on, as well as Representative Burchett with the FAA, to your understanding pilots that are seeing this commercial airline pilots.

01:11:21 Speaker 3

Are they receiving cease and desist letters from corporations for coming forward with information in regards to safety for potential airline passengers?

01:11:29 Speaker 7

I have been made Privy to conversations with commercial aviators who have received seasoned assist.

01:11:34 Speaker 3

Orders so the American public should know that corporations are putting their own reputations on the.

01:11:40 Speaker 3

Is it not the line but ahead?

01:11:42 Speaker 3

Of the safety of the American people, and I think, would you agree?

01:11:45 Speaker 3

With that statement.

01:11:46 Speaker 7

It appears so.

01:11:47 Speaker 3

OK. And I guess this would be my last, I’m out of time I yield.

01:11:54 Speaker 3

I’ll be back.

01:11:56 Speaker 1

Good, Mr. Moskowitz.

01:11:58 Speaker 6

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, let’s talk about the laws of physics for a second, Mr. Graves and and and, commander favor. I heard you talk about speed.

01:12:09 Speaker 6

When those objects broke, the sound barrier, did they make a Sonic boom?

01:12:16 Speaker 10

1000 and yet you can’t hear anything. It’s kind of loud.

01:12:19 Speaker 10

In there.

01:12:20 Speaker 7

Yeah, you you’re not able to actually personally tell within the vehicle. I will say the objects that we were seeing there were spherical and they were observed up to Mach 2, which is a very in non aerodynamic.

01:12:30 Speaker 6

Shape. What about G forces? Let’s talk about G forces of those vehicles. Could a human survive those G forces?

01:12:36 Speaker 6

With known technology today.

01:12:38 Speaker 10

No, no, not for the acceleration rates that we observed.

01:12:41 Speaker 6

OK, what about what they look like? How close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section? And what I mean is, obviously The Jets you’re flying have all those things.

01:12:52 Speaker 6

That these objects have those.

01:12:55 Speaker 10

Do you want to go ride?

01:12:55 Speaker 7

I didn’t have. I didn’t.

01:12:56 Speaker 7

Have the detail to be able to tell that.

01:12:58 Speaker 10

So we got within 1/2 mile at six TAC, which people say that’s pretty far, but it’s in airplanes that’s actually relatively close. No, it’s perfectly white smooth, no windows. Although when we did take the original Flyer video that is out there, when you put it on a big screen, it actually had two little objects that came out of the bottom of it. But other than that, no, no windows.

01:13:17 Speaker 10

No seams, no nothing.

01:13:19 Speaker 6

Mr. Grush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself of non human origin craft?

01:13:28 Speaker 9

Yes, I personally interviewed those individuals.

01:13:30 Speaker 6

Mr. Grush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about ATC’s advanced technologies that the US government has?

01:13:42 Speaker 9

Based on conventional advanced tech, I was briefed to the preponderance of the defense departments, both space and Aerospace Department programs. Yeah.

01:13:53 Speaker 6

Do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced tech space that are unsanctioned?

01:14:00 Speaker 9

Yes, I.

01:14:00 Speaker 6

Do. OK. Yeah. And and when you say that they’re above congressional oversight. What do you mean?

01:14:07 Speaker 9

Complicated question. So there’s, you know some I would call it abuse here. So congressional oversight of conventional special access program. So I’ll use Title 10. So DoD as an example right SO10US code Section 119 discusses congressional oversight of SAPS discusses of the the.

01:14:26 Speaker 9

That sect Defs, ability to waive congressional reporting. However, the gang of eight is at least supposed to be notified if a, you know, waived or waived. Bigoted, unacknowledged SAP is created, and that’s public law well.

01:14:38 Speaker 6

So that how does I mean I don’t want to cut you off, but how does a program like that get funded?

01:14:43 Speaker 9

I will give you generalities. I can get very specific in a closed session, but miss misappropriation of funds and self fund.

01:14:50 Speaker 6

Does that mean that does that mean that there is money in the budget that is set to go to a program but it doesn’t and?

01:14:56 Speaker 6

It goes to something else.

01:14:57 Speaker 9

Yes, I have specific knowledge.

01:14:58 Speaker 6

Of that, Yep. Do you think US corporations are over overcharging for certain tech they’re selling to the US government and that additional money is going to programs?

01:15:07 Speaker 9

From something called IRAD.

01:15:09 Speaker 6

OK.

01:15:12 Speaker 6

Satellite imagery. Let’s talk about satellite imagery. We have satellites all over the place, some that we’re aware of and many that we’re not aware of, right. We’re taking pictures of everything at every point in second. Mr. Grush, are you aware? Do you have direct knowledge? We talked to people direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these.

01:15:32 Speaker 9

Events. That was one of my primary tasks at NGA. Since we process, exploit and disseminate that kind of information.

01:15:40 Speaker 9

I’ve seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding, and of course I left Ng in April. So that’s my information cut off date, but I personally reviewed both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms.

01:15:55 Speaker 9

That were I could not even explain prosaically, and I have a degree in physics, by the way, as.

01:15:58 Speaker 9

Well, and I had I.

01:16:02 Speaker 9

Am aware that you guys have not seen these reports unfortunately and I don’t.

01:16:07 Speaker 6

Know why it is? Do you have direct knowledge? We have spoken people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to crash sites.

01:16:15 Speaker 6

Crash crash in the tree.

01:16:17 Speaker 9

I can’t discuss that in an open session.

01:16:20 Speaker 6

OK.

01:16:23 Speaker 6

Do you have any information that the US government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain AP’s?

01:16:33 Speaker 9

I can’t go beyond what I’ve already stated publicly in my News Nation interview because it touches other sensitivities.

01:16:39 Speaker 6

OK. I’ll yield the balance of my time back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:16:48 Speaker 1

Miss fox.

01:16:50 Speaker 12

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here today. Mr. Grush, in your sworn testimony, you state that the United States government has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft and other UATP related artifacts.

01:17:10 Speaker 12

You go so far as to state that the US is in possession of quote non human spacecraft End Quote and that some of these artifacts have circulated with defense contractors.

01:17:25 Speaker 12

Several other former military and intelligence officials have come forward with similar allegations, albeit and non public settings. However, Doctor Sean Kirkpatrick, the director of ARO, previously testified before Congress that there has been, and I quote.

01:17:46 Speaker 12

No credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial activity or.

01:17:54 Speaker 12

Quote Off World technology brought to the attention of the office to your knowledge, is that statement correct?

01:18:06 Speaker 9

It’s not accurate, I believe Doctor Katrice mentioned he had about 30 individuals that have come to arrow thus far. A few of those individuals have also come to arrow that I also interviewed and I know what they provided Dr. Kirkpatrick and their team. I was able to evaluate that information.

01:18:17 Speaker 12

OK.

01:18:23 Speaker 12

OK, I need to go on but.

01:18:28 Speaker 12

My understanding that this.

01:18:31 Speaker 12

His statement is accurate.

01:18:35 Speaker 12

Came from a direct quote, and this contradiction is a perfect example of why we need to inject transparency into our government. And for another example, look no further than the pitiful response to the Chinese spy balloon debacle earlier this year.

01:18:54 Speaker 12

You may remember the mass confusion that ensued when the balloon was first spotted over Montana four days after it first entered US airspace over Alaska. The Biden administration’s initial inability to address the object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments after news of the balloon.

01:19:14 Speaker 12

Reached the Main Street meet mainstream media, we were assured.

01:19:18 Speaker 12

That the balloon posed no threat to our security. However, after the balloon was allowed to transit the entire continental United States, fighter jets were scrambled off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down. This flip flopping and obvious scating caused needless confusion, fear, and panic across the country.

01:19:40 Speaker 12

It’s my hope, Mr. Chairman, that this sort of confusion will not be repeated.

01:19:46 Speaker 12

We should investigate the extent to which elements of our government possess or do not possess information that is of critical value to the American people. We owe it to the citizens of this nation to make sure that our government is transparent and accountable. We must make sure that our government.

01:20:06 Speaker 12

Provides answers and Congress must do its duty to solicit those answers with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

01:20:18 Speaker 1

Yeah, Mr. frost.

01:20:20 Speaker 13

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In 2022, NASA announced it was commissioning an independent study team to examine U AP’s. The NASA team is comprised of scientists across different fields as well as former astronauts and pilots. In May, the independent study team held that its first public meeting.

01:20:40 Speaker 13

Which included the perspectives from NASA senior leaders, as well as perspectives from the Department of Defense and Intelligence agencies.

01:20:47 Speaker 13

The NASA study team is also expected to release its first report pretty soon, and I think it’s safe to say that we all eagerly await its results. Mr. Graves, how might NASA’s research influence the commercial industry regarding safety and UAP?

01:21:03 Speaker 7

I think NASA has a big role to play as far as commercial aviation safety and it’s one of their original charges as an organization.

01:21:10 Speaker 7

One of the recommendations that have been put forward is to utilize their existing aviation safety reporting system to serve as a short term fill and trusted platform for pilots that want to report on UAP. It also has built in analytics capability and is funded by Congress.

01:21:25 Speaker 13

Gotcha. And also Mr. Graves, are there any other industries that may be influenced by the NASA research?

01:21:30 Speaker 13

The AP’s and and if so, how so?

01:21:33 Speaker 7

Well, I think there is a a large swath of commercial capabilities that could be brought to bear on this topic from space based or ground based sensor systems that are available, open source or through commercial marketplaces. And I think NASA’s work as they work to identify and highlight specific parameters that can be found, we can take that information and and promulgate this through the public sector.

01:21:53 Speaker 7

So that we can have a more open conversation about what?

01:21:56 Speaker 13

We’re seeing, you know, in 2020, the Department of Defense released several videos of UA’s, including Mr. Fryers, experience U.S. Navy pilots that recorded footage in 2021, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released a preliminary report on UAP events NASA administrator.

01:22:16 Speaker 13

Phil Nelson stated that NASA would begin to investigate these events.

01:22:20 Speaker 13

In fact, I sit on science based and Technology committee and when we were doing a hearing with the NASA administrator, Bill Nelson, I asked, you know, why why NASA needed to be fully funded? And there are many great reasons. But one of them was actually had to do with UAP’s. They actually mentioned, you know, is there life out there? I don’t know. And so either.

01:22:41 Speaker 13

These actions ultimately led NASA to assemble the independent study team that I mentioned earlier. Also in 2021, Harvard University stood at the Galileo project to research and examine the origins of UAP, so it seems like both, you know from NASA and in the higher education community.

01:23:00 Speaker 13

Because of the work that you all have done and people standing up, you know, I think we’re seeing some of that stigma slowly going away. Mr. Fryer, do you believe that military pilots feeling empowered to share their UAP experiences has directly impacted the scientific Communities research goals on this topic?

01:23:22 Speaker 10

I would say yes, I would say that you know, starting in 2017 when it actually came out, it took that stigma away. I mean, I’ve talked to multiple senators who said prior to that if you have mentioned UAPB, you’d have been laughed off the hill and now you’ve we’re sitting here today for a public testimony on what’s actually going on. You know, I I’m hoping that this curve will be more of an exponential.

01:23:42 Speaker 10

And we’ll get more and more transparent to the level that.

01:23:45 Speaker 13

We can. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it’s important. I couldn’t imagine.

01:23:50 Speaker 13

You know, I’m not a pilot, but I used to fly gliders and Civil Air Patrol, huh? Yeah, I got yeah. You know. And so either way, I mean, I couldn’t imagine, you know, being being in the glider and seeing something and then not feeling like I had the agency.

01:24:08 Speaker 13

To talk about it.

01:24:10 Speaker 13

Mr. Graves, can you discuss the importance of seeking scientists to sit on your Advisory Board?

01:24:15 Speaker 7

Absolutely. I think ultimately this is going to be a scientific problem.

01:24:18 Speaker 7

And not only that, it’s also an engineering problem. I’ve been working with the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics to help them stand up a UAP integration committee to help integrate their engineering prowess into this problem. And so, yes, very much. I think this is an engineering and scientific problem as much as national security problem.

01:24:35 Speaker 13

And how might Congress help to facilitate partnerships between?

01:24:39 Speaker 13

The scientific community and the UAP focus groups within government.

01:24:43 Speaker 7

Well, I think one of the things they can do is to have these types of hearings to, to communicate to the public that this is a topic of interest. I think that there is a a pseudo market, if you will, of interested capabilities and talent that want to approach this topic.

01:24:55 Speaker 7

And we’re seeing that start to grow now. So I think continued conversation reduction of stigma is going to allow that to flourish and allow answers to help generate themselves.

01:25:04 Speaker 13

100% well, thank you all for being here. Thank you for your work. I think it’s important that we keep our top scientific minds focused on this issue and look for ways to increase collaboration. Thank you so.

01:25:14 Speaker 13

Much I yield back.

01:25:15 Speaker 1

Mr. Comer.

01:25:16 Speaker 14

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me say I want to thank you for having this hearing and I want to thank Mr. Burchett, Miss Luna for leading this hearing and with that I yield my 5 minutes to Mr. Burchett.

01:25:26 Speaker 2

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I’m going to direct this. I believe to Mr. Grush, but if any of you all feel like you need to jump in, just jump right in and we’re good. Has the US government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial otherized unexplained forms of intelligence? And if so, when do you think this first occurred?

01:25:46 Speaker 9

I like to use the term non human. I don’t like to denote origin keeps the aperture open both scientifically, certainly like I’ve discussed publicly previously 19.

01:25:59 Speaker 2

OK.

01:26:00 Speaker 2

Can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct first hand knowledge and access to some of this crash retrieval? Some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which facilities, military bases that would that were covered. Material would be in and I know a lot of Congress talked about we’re going to go to area 51 and you know, and and there’s nothing there.

01:26:21 Speaker 2

Anymore anyway, it’s just, you know, and and we move like a glacier as we announce it. I’m sure the moving vans would pull up, but please.

01:26:30 Speaker 9

I can’t discuss that.

01:26:31 Speaker 9

Publicly, but I did provide that information both to the Intel committees and the Inspector General.

01:26:35 Speaker 2

And we could get that in the skiff if we were allowed to get in a skiff with you. Would that be? Probably.

01:26:39 Speaker 2

What you would think, yeah.

01:26:40 Speaker 9

Sure, if you have the appropriate accesses, yeah.

01:26:43 Speaker 2

What special access programs cover this information and how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long?

01:26:52 Speaker 9

I do know the names. Once again, I can’t discuss that publicly and and how they’ve evaded oversight. I in a closed setting, I can tell you the specific.

01:26:59 Speaker 9

Tradecraft use.

01:27:02 Speaker 2

When did when do you think those programs began and who authorized them?

01:27:08 Speaker 9

I do know a lot of that information, but that’s something I can’t discuss publicly because.

01:27:12 Speaker 9

Since alright.

01:27:12 Speaker 2

If any y’all want to jump in on any of this, you’re more than welcome to.

01:27:17 Speaker 2

What level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs?

01:27:22 Speaker 9

Or anybody who has.

01:27:24 Speaker 2

And I say that because myself, representative gates and representative Luna were basically turned away at one point at Eglin. So please go right ahead.

01:27:35 Speaker 9

Certainly difference between member access and say somebody like me, but anybody who has a, you know, TSC clearance and meets the eligibility.

01:27:41 Speaker 9

Materia. The access adjudicative authority should be able to grant you access, yeah.

01:27:45 Speaker 5

Miss Bertrand, if you’ll yield. So just to be put a fine point on that.

01:27:50 Speaker 5

There’s nothing that you’re aware of that’s above special access program classification.

01:27:55 Speaker 9

It it’s a misnomer that there’s anything actually above top secret executive order 13526 delineates the classification.

01:28:01 Speaker 5

Levels right? And but I I draw a point on that because we can have access to to those programs and so the.

01:28:08 Speaker 5

Action that.

01:28:09 Speaker 5

We’re not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress. Thank you, miss Birch. I’ll go back to you.

01:28:15 Speaker 2

Thank you, Mr. Gates. Along those lines, Title 10 and you may not know this or not, but Title 10 and Title 50 authorization.

01:28:23 Speaker 2

They they seem to say they’re inefficient it. So who gets to decide this in your opinion in the past?

01:28:31 Speaker 9

It’s a group of career.

01:28:34 Speaker 9

Senior executive officials.

01:28:36 Speaker 2

OK. Are they government officials?

01:28:39 Speaker 9

Both in and out.

01:28:39 Speaker 2

Or do what?

01:28:40 Speaker 9

Both in and out of government, and that’s about as far.

01:28:43 Speaker 2

I got you. All right. Well, that’s.

01:28:43 Speaker 9

As I can go there, yeah.

01:28:46 Speaker 2

That leads to my next question.

01:28:48 Speaker 2

Which private corporations are directly involved in this program? How much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs? To your knowledge? Well, we know we know we we audit the Pentagon every year, and I’ve been here five years and they failed the dead gum thing every year.

01:29:06 Speaker 2

Lose over a billion dollars a year, we think. And I’ve told Department of Tents maybe 60% of their assets are unaccounted for. Whatever the heck that means.

01:29:14 Speaker 2

In the public sector, you go to jail for that kind of crap. So tell me.

01:29:19 Speaker 9

Yeah, I know. When I I’m. I’m a dollar off of my DTS travel voucher. I get hammered but it seems like it doesn’t work.

01:29:25 Speaker 9

The other way, right? Yeah.

01:29:25 Speaker 2

If you sell over 6, if you sell over $600.00 worth of stuff on eBay now, you get a call from the IRS. So please what corporations?

01:29:32 Speaker 9

Yeah, I don’t know these specific metrics towards the end of your question, the specific corporations I did provide to the committees in specific divisions and I spent 11 1/2 hours with both.

01:29:43 Speaker 9

Intel committees, so OK, has there been any?

01:29:46 Speaker 2

Has there been an active U.S. government disinformation campaign to deny the existence of an unidentified aerial phenomena, and if so, why?

01:29:56 Speaker 9

I can’t go beyond what I’ve already exposed publicly about that.

01:30:05 Speaker 15

It’s not what you said to get it to this.

01:30:14 Speaker 2

OK, I’ve been told to ask you what that what that is and how to get it.

01:30:17 Speaker 2

In the record.

01:30:19 Speaker 9

Which which?

01:30:21 Speaker 3

What have you stated?

01:30:21 Speaker 3

Publicly, in your interviews for the congressional record.

01:30:26 Speaker 9

Yeah, if you reference my News Nation interview and I talk about a multi decade, you know, campaign to disenfranchise public interest, basically, yeah.

01:30:34 Speaker 2

Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I’ve come.

01:30:36 Speaker 3

Thank you.

01:30:36 Speaker 2

I apologize, Mr. Chairman, I yield back -21 seconds.

01:30:40 Speaker 1

Thank you, Mr. Ocasio. Cortez.

01:30:44 Speaker 15

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming here today. I do concur with the ranking Member as well as several other Members here on this committee that this is a committee for whistleblowers and for the protection of whistleblowers as well. So we understand what you’re putting.

01:30:59 Speaker 15

On the table here, and we’re putting on the line here and we thank you for that. Mister crush. You sat on the unidentified anomalous phenomenon task force created in the 2020 NDAA. Correct. There have been some things that that have been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick up on Mr. Graves. You mentioned specifically during the answer to one of your questions.

01:31:20 Speaker 15

You named Boeing contractors being engaged in an incident regarding this red cube about a football, a football field wide.

01:31:30 Speaker 15

I was wondering.

01:31:31 Speaker 15

If you could speak a little bit about the interaction.

01:31:33 Speaker 15

Action or Mr. Grush either of you, the interactions between defense contractor companies and any UA P related programs or activities?

01:31:41 Speaker 7

So I’ll just say that the information about the contractor himself were provided by a witness and I have no particular detail in that relationship.

01:31:49 Speaker 15

Mr. Gresh.

01:31:51 Speaker 9

The kind of general unclassed wave tops. Certainly the contractors you know are the metal benders, so to speak, the the.

01:31:56 Speaker 9

Actually doing specific performance on government.

01:32:00 Speaker 15

Contracts. Are they required to issue any disclosure regarding UA P sightings or do they engage in any reporting around?

01:32:08 Speaker 9

This in terms of the contractors, not that I’m aware of.

01:32:11 Speaker 15

They do not. OK, now, when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about I wrap program I read programs.

01:32:22 Speaker 15

We have seen defense contractors abuse their contracts before through this committee. I have seen it personally and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused. I am wondering one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is, at least from my vantage point.

01:32:43 Speaker 15

Is that depending on what we’re seeing is that there are no actual definitions or requirements for notification.

01:32:50 Speaker 15

Are there what methods of notification did you observe? Like when they say they notified Congress, how did they do that? Do you have insight into that?

01:33:00 Speaker 9

For certain IRAD activities, and I and I, I can only think of 1’s conventional.

01:33:06 Speaker 9

In nature, sometimes they throw flow through certain how to say SAP programs that have Cognizant authority over the Air Force or something, and those are congressionally reported compartment.

01:33:17 Speaker 9

But I read is literally internal to the contractors. So as long as it’s money either profits private investment except for they can.

01:33:24 Speaker 15

And to to put.

01:33:25 Speaker 9

Do whatever they want.

01:33:26 Speaker 15

A finer point on it. When there is a requirement for any agency or company to notify or any agency to notify Congress, do they contact the chairman of a committee? Do they get them on the phone specifically? Is this through an e-mail to hypothetically?

01:33:42 Speaker 15

A dead e-mail box.

01:33:44 Speaker 9

A lot of it comes through what they call the PR periodic program review process. If it’s a, you know, a SAP or controlled access program equity and then those go to the specific committees, whether it be the SAS task hissy.

01:33:56 Speaker 15

Thank you. I I apologize. I I just my time is limited, Mr. Graves. One of your main concerns that the FAA currently does not have an official process to receive reports of UA P from pilots or others.

01:34:08 Speaker 15

Correct, correct. And in your experience, what data should the arrow program prioritize for potential collection we have, you know location, date, time, but are there other specific characteristics that should be included in?

01:34:24 Speaker 15

These reports.

01:34:24 Speaker 7

Certainly, I think that there’s two categories that would be important. One would be kinematics and understanding the specifics of how the vehicle or objects are moving and the second would be a more zoomed out approach of being able to look at origin and destination after before the incident as well as getting a better contextual understanding of how these these objects are interacting with each other.

01:34:45 Speaker 15

Thank you now.

01:34:47 Speaker 15

Because I only have a minute left, I apologize. We only have 5 minutes today, but for the record, if you were me, where would you look? Titles. Programs.

01:35:00 Speaker 15

Departments, regions. If you could just name.

01:35:05 Speaker 15

Anything and I put that as an open question to the three of you.

01:35:10 Speaker 9

I’d be happy to give you that in a closed environment, I can tell you specifically.

01:35:14 Speaker 15

Thank you.

01:35:16 Speaker 10

Commander Fravor and I would say, and I’ve told people that you have to know where to look. They’re not gonna divulge it to you because of the classification levels. But if you know where to look and who to.

01:35:25 Speaker 10

Talk to, which is exactly Mr.

01:35:26 Speaker 10

Gretchen Point you then.

01:35:28 Speaker 10

You then you have them. OK, Mr. Graves.

01:35:31 Speaker 7

I was an operator, so I was depending on folks like Mr. Gross.

01:35:33 Speaker 7

To do that homework.

01:35:34 Speaker 15

OK.

01:35:35 Speaker 15

Thank you very much. I yield back to the chair.

01:35:38 Speaker 8

Mr. Biggs, thanks. Thanks, Mr. Chairman, I thank the witnesses for being here today. I’m over here.

01:35:46 Speaker 8

Thank you so much for being here.

01:35:50 Speaker 8

I I want to get into specifics here and and and the reason I’m going to go this way is because you’ve talked a bit about what I would call misdirection by official U.S. government with regard to UP’s right.

01:36:10 Speaker 8

And so I’m going to get to that in a second. But last week, White House NSC spokesman John Kirby stated that UFO’s are having an impact on our training ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue. Do you concur with the statements that’s for each of?

01:36:22 Speaker 9

You, yes.

01:36:25 Speaker 7

Yes, yes. OK.

01:36:29 Speaker 8

Now, having said that, I’m going to take you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because that’s where I I live in 97, we had the famous Phoenix light case. I don’t know if any of.

01:36:43 Speaker 8

You are familiar with that.

01:36:46 Speaker 8

And there were there were two things that went along with that, and the explanation was.

01:36:51 Speaker 8

Military training range off Luke and the Barry Goldwater range.

01:36:56 Speaker 8

Do you know anything different other than the official explanation of those lights?

01:37:01 Speaker 9

Only what’s in the public vernacular about it. That was outside the scope of my.

01:37:05 Speaker 8

Duties. And if we wanted to just my question along with my colleague from New York, Miss Ocasio Cortez, if we wanted to find out more about that, where would we go to find the files and where and who would we address and are you and tell me we need to go to the skiff?

01:37:20 Speaker 8

So you can tell us.

01:37:21 Speaker 8

In a skiff.

01:37:23 Speaker 9

I could potentially give you a vector on that that specific case I’m not. I mean, I’m familiar with it in terms of public, but I give you a vector.

01:37:31 Speaker 8

In closed environment, yeah, that would be good. Thank you. So if if it’s true that UA’s are having impact on training ranges and this administration considers it to be a legitimate issue, what steps can Congress take to address?

01:37:44 Speaker 8

Training range impacts and I say that having two very large training ranges in my state and so we’ll start with Mr. Graves and going down the the panel.

01:37:54 Speaker 7

Some of the initial procedures have been implemented, such as within the United States Navy, that have a range follower report that gathers information from pilots. I understand that a service wide reporting mechanism is still pending. However, that would be a great next step not only for gathering information but for showing the troops that is an acceptable topic and reducing the stigma.

01:38:16 Speaker 8

OK, please all of you, continue.

01:38:18 Speaker 9

Yeah, as a recipient of a lot of those training range reports, sometimes we only get contextual kind of oral reporting. It’d be nice if they attached all sensor data and there there’s a system in place that can handle multiple classifications.

01:38:33 Speaker 9

And that’s an issue with the F35, right? That jet was never built to be an ISR platform, and it’s a pain in the well to say, but to get that data off, so yeah, great.

01:38:43 Speaker 8

Thank you.

01:38:44 Speaker 10

Yeah, I would agree with the previous two being a user of those training ranges that the data has to be out there, you have to acknowledge that you’re seeing them and then you have to collect the data right now you get the report. Someone says I saw something, but no one collects the radar data to to, to back it up and do research.

01:38:59 Speaker 8

OK. And do you believe that the 2019 classification guidelines for UA’s interferes with the federal government’s ability to be transparent with the American people? And do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people?

01:39:11 Speaker 7

All of you? Yeah, I’ll. I’ll say yes to that.

01:39:15 Speaker 9

Yeah, I’m familiar with the the least the AP task Force 2019 Security Classification Guide. I think it’s fair. I did actually help offer that.

01:39:24 Speaker 9

With the oh, you got you got a.

01:39:25 Speaker 8

Bias that way.

01:39:26 Speaker 9

Yeah. But I will say I’ll call it a lazy attitude about declassifying videos. I mean, I’ve seen some of the videos of, you know, the recent shoot down. And I saw no reason that couldn’t have been released as long as they mask, you know, some data the American people deserve to see that that imagery and and full motion video.

01:39:47 Speaker 10

I would think well, in my opinion, I will say.

01:39:51 Speaker 10

Things are over classified. I know for a fact the video or the pictures that came out in the twenty thing is 2020 report that had the stuff off the East Coast. They were taken with an iPhone off the East Coast. The buddy of mine was one of the senior people there and he said they originally classified a TSE I and my question was, what’s TSI?

01:40:07 Speaker 10

These they’re an iPhone, right? Literally off the van capes. That’s not TS CI. So they’re over classified. And as soon as they do that, they go in a vault and.

01:40:14 Speaker 8

Then you all have to look for them. Yeah. So with the overclassification, that may be one way. Are there other ways that the DoD or intelligence agencies are keeping this information from the American people or even from Congress?

01:40:27 Speaker 7

I think part of that has been not encouraging reporting if the problem is not something that can be measured, it’s not something that’s going to be fixed.

01:40:35 Speaker 8

OK, very good. Well, I’m out of time and I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and you’ll get.

01:40:41 Speaker 1

First of all, without objection, representative Nick Langworthy of New York has waived on the Subcommittee for purpose of questioning witnesses. Is today’s subcommittee hearing, and then we go to Mr. Burleson.

01:40:55 Speaker 16

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate you guys coming out today testifying. Look, I’ve been here for six months and I’m pretty skeptical. I don’t trust anything in this town and and so I and I think that’s because I’m from Missouri. You’ve.

01:41:10 Speaker 16

Got to show.

01:41:10 Speaker 16

Me right. With that being said, there’s been a lot of things that have been said.

01:41:17 Speaker 16

In in the public, Mr. Grush and and so I want to get down to if we can some specifics. Right. So at one point you said that they’re they’re they’re there has been harmful activity or progressive activity has any of the activity been aggressive?

01:41:36 Speaker 16

And hostile in your reply.

01:41:40 Speaker 9

I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured and the activity.

01:41:47 Speaker 16

I got by by UAP’s or by by people within the the federal government both.

01:41:55 Speaker 16

OK, so there has been activity by by alien or non non human technology and or beings that has caused harm to.

01:42:08 Speaker 9

I can’t get into the specifics in an open environment, but at least the activity that I personally witnessed and not to be very careful here because you don’t, you know, tell never to acknowledge tradecraft, right? So what I personally witnessed myself and my wife was very disturbing.

01:42:27 Speaker 16

OK, one of my constituents actually sent this next question and I figured I’d ask it since I had the same thought. You’ve said that US has intact space spacecraft. You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species.

01:42:45 Speaker 16

Have you seen? Have you? Have you seen the spacecraft?

01:42:50 Speaker 9

I have to be careful to describe what I’ve seen first hand and not in this environment, but I I could answer that question behind behind closed doors.

01:42:57 Speaker 16

And have you seen any of the bodies?

01:43:00 Speaker 9

That’s something I’ve I’ve not witnessed.

01:43:03 Speaker 16

Myself, OK. And so with that being said, you know and the other other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because and it’s intriguing because my my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any any other system.

01:43:20 Speaker 16

And the concept that an alien species is technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is is something that I find a little bit far fetched. And with that being said, you have mentioned that there’s interdimensional.

01:43:42 Speaker 16

Potential could you expound on that?

01:43:45 Speaker 9

I got to answer your first question and you know I’m here as a fact witness, an expert. But I I will give you a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of expels crashes regardless of, you know, your level of sentience, right. You know, planes crash, cars crash and number of sorties. What however high a small percentage you’re going to end and you know.

01:44:05 Speaker 9

Motion failure for well, as we say in the in the Air Force and then in terms of.

01:44:11 Speaker 9

Multi dimensionality, that kind of thing the the framework that I’m familiar with for example is something called the holographic principle. Both it’s it derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics, and that is if you want to imagine 3D objects such as yourself casting a shadow.

01:44:30 Speaker 9

Onto a 2D surface. That’s the holographic principle, so you can be projected quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional. It’s a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand, but there’s.

01:44:43 Speaker 9

The guys of PHD’s that we could probably argue about that.

01:44:45 Speaker 16

But but you have not seen any documentation that that’s what’s occurring. Only a theoretical framework discussion. OK, OK.

01:44:56 Speaker 16

Occam’s razor. Is that this these aircraft, have they been identified, that they are being produced by?

01:45:06 Speaker 16

By domestic, you know, military and contractors.

01:45:12 Speaker 16

Is there any evidence that that’s what’s being recovered?

01:45:15 Speaker 9

Not to my knowledge. Plus, the recoveries predate a lot of our advanced programs that I previously am witting of so.

01:45:22 Speaker 16

Would it be safe to say that there could be scenario today where you have an aircraft that crashes and it because it’s been involved in one program from one federal agency?

01:45:36 Speaker 16

And the but the. But the agency that retrieves it does is not aware of that program, and to them it it appears alien in origin.

01:45:46 Speaker 9

I mean, that’s a hypothetical situation I’m not aware of any historical situation that would match that that you described.

01:45:53 Speaker 16

So you’re not aware it has not happened.

01:45:55 Speaker 9

That you’re aware of that I’m aware of?

01:45:59 Speaker 16

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

01:46:07 Speaker 5

Several months ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base indicating that there was a UAP incident that required my attention. I sought a briefing regarding that episode and brought with me Congressman Burchett and Congresswoman Luna. We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight.

01:46:27 Speaker 5

Through in this endeavor, and to observe any radar signature, as long as to as well as to meet with the flight crew.

01:46:34 Speaker 5

We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew and initially we were not afforded access to images and to radar. Thereafter. We had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America and we did see the image.

01:46:53 Speaker 5

And we did meet with one member of the.

01:46:55 Speaker 5

Flight crew who took the.

01:46:56 Speaker 5

Image the image was of something that I am not able to attach to any human capability, either from the United States or from any of our adversaries, and I’m somewhat informed on the matter. Having served on the Armed Services Committee for seven years, having served on the committee that overseas, DARPA and advanced technologies for.

01:47:17 Speaker 5

Several years.

01:47:19 Speaker 5

When we spoke with the flight crew and when he showed us the photo that he’d taken, I asked why the video wasn’t engaged, why we didn’t have a flier system that worked. Here’s what he said. They were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of Mexico. And when you’re on a test mission, you’re supposed to have clear airspace, not supposed to be anything that shows up.

01:47:40 Speaker 5

And they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond formation, for which there is.

01:47:48 Speaker 5

A radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the United States Congress.

01:47:55 Speaker 5

One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating what I can only describe as an orb. Again, like I said, not of any human capability that I’m that I’m aware of. And when he approached he said that his radar went down.

01:48:11 Speaker 5

He said that his flair system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image from one of the lenses and it was not automatic automated in collection as you would typically see in a test mission. So I guess I’ll start with Commander Fravor.

01:48:31 Speaker 5

But in well, how should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by our pilot had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft?

01:48:46 Speaker 10

Well, I think this goes to that national security side and you can go back through history of.

01:48:50 Speaker 10

Things showing up at certain areas and disabling our capabilities, which is disheartening and for us, I mean, like I said it it completely disabled the radar on the aircraft when it tried to do it. The only way we could see it is passively, which is how he got that image. So I think that’s a that’s a concern on what are these doing, not only how do they.

01:49:06 Speaker 10

Operate, but their capabilities inside to do things like this.

01:49:10 Speaker 5

And and how should we think about four craft moving in a very clear formation, equidistant from one another, in a diamond in all of the phenomenon? Perhaps Mr. grave that you’ve analyzed, have we ever seen multiple craft in a in a single formation?

01:49:30 Speaker 7

I have one particular case and that was during the gimbal. It’s the recording on the AT flare system shows a single object that rotates. You hear the pilots refer to a fleet of objects that is not visible on the flyer system and and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational awareness page. I would like to add.

01:49:50 Speaker 7

However, Congressman, there’s small, small bit of.

01:49:54 Speaker 7

Anger, I would say. I would feel that those pilots are still facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they don’t have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue. It just goes to show how serious this is and why this is such an important issue for our pilots.

01:50:06 Speaker 5

And for our nation, it was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a UA.

01:50:13 Speaker 5

The experience, the best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any type of reporting either above the surface or below the surface.

01:50:24 Speaker 5

Does have a perceived consequence to these people, and that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the truth. Mr. Chairman, I I would observe that perhaps as we as we move forward from this hearing, there are some obvious next steps. Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr. Grush in a secure compartmentalized.

01:50:44 Speaker 5

Facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that and that give us the information we need. Second, I would suggest that the.

01:50:54 Speaker 5

Radar images from that were collected of this formation of craft out of Eglin Air Force Base and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate be provided to the committee subpoenaed if necessary, so that we’re able to track how to get this type of reporting.

01:51:14 Speaker 5

And analysis done in a more fulsome way. That would be my recommendation, humbly as a guest here of the Fine Oversight Committee, I yield back.

01:51:24 Speaker 1

Miss Mace.

01:51:26 Speaker 17

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning to our witnesses who are testifying today. I want to thank each of you for being here to discuss the topic of grave importance to our national security. Earlier this year, a Chinese spy balloon was shot down off the coast of my home state of South Carolina. Since the Roswell incident in 1947, many Americans have wondered about the dangers of unknown.

01:51:47 Speaker 17

Objects crisscrossing our skies. Whether these are UAC’s or whether phenomena, phenomena, advanced technology from American allied or enemy forces, or something more.

01:51:57 Speaker 17

Out of this world.

01:51:58 Speaker 17

So my first question, I have several questions and I’ll I if we could just be quick on these first two. I’m gonna ask each of you the same question and then I’ll get to each of you individually. The first one, when you reported your experiences with the UAP did in view face any repercussions with your superiors? Yes or no?

01:52:20 Speaker 9

I’ve actually never seen anything personally, believe it or.

01:52:23 Speaker 17

Not so, alright. And then do. Do you believe there’s an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny existence of AP’s? Yes or no?

01:52:32 Speaker 7

I don’t have an answer to that.

01:52:35 Speaker 9

As previous previously stated, publicly, yes.

01:52:39 Speaker 10

I think previously would like Project Blue Book yes, but currently I don’t speak for the United.

01:52:42 Speaker 17

States government. OK. Thank you. I have a few questions for Mr. Graves. What percentage of UAP sightings and your belief go unreported by our pilots?

01:52:52 Speaker 7

This is an approximation based off of my personal experience speaking with a number of pilots, but I would estimate where somewhere near 5% reporting perhaps.

01:53:00 Speaker 17

So like 95% basically, don’t report seeing UA’s.

01:53:04 Speaker 7

That’s just my personal.

01:53:07 Speaker 17

In the incident off Virginia Beach, do you believe the Navy took the danger to your aircraft seriously after it was reported a few questions for Mr. Favor? As an expert naval aviator, have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the tic Tac?

01:53:21 Speaker 17

UA P.

01:53:24 Speaker 17

Did the tic Tac UAP move in such a way?

01:53:26 Speaker 17

That defied the laws.

01:53:27 Speaker 17

Of physics.

01:53:28 Speaker 10

The way we understand them, yes.

01:53:32 Speaker 17

Many dismissed UU AP reports as classified weapons testing by our own government. But in your experience as a pilot, does our government typically test advanced weapon systems right next to multi $1,000,000 jets without informing our pilots?

01:53:47 Speaker 10

No. We have test ranges for that.

01:53:50

It took over.

01:53:51 Speaker 17

15 years for your encounter with the Tic Tac to be declassified. Do you feel there was a good reason to prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage?

01:54:00 Speaker 10

No, I just think it was ignored when it happened and it just sat somewhere in a file, never got reported.

01:54:06 Speaker 17

In a drawer, it happens a.

01:54:07 Speaker 17

Lot up here. Shocker.

01:54:09 Speaker 17

Mr. Gresh, a couple of questions for you too, Sir, this morning, what percentage of UA’s do you feel are adequately investigated by the US government of the 5% of?

01:54:18 Speaker 17

That are reported.

01:54:20 Speaker 9

I can only speak for my personal leadership over at NGA. I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage. So.

01:54:28 Speaker 17

Do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority?

01:54:39 Speaker 9

There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I’m not sure what they’ve shared with certain gang of eight members or et cetera. But certainly I would not be surprised.

01:54:52 Speaker 17

You say that the government is in possession of potentially non human spacecraft. Based on your experience and extensive.

01:54:59 Speaker 17

Conversations with experts.

01:55:01 Speaker 17

Do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials?

01:55:07 Speaker 9

Something I can’t discuss in public setting.

01:55:12 Speaker 17

OK. And I can’t ask when you.

01:55:13 Speaker 17

Think this occurred?

01:55:15 Speaker 17

If you believe we.

01:55:16 Speaker 17

Have crashed, craft stated earlier. Do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft?

01:55:23 Speaker 9

As I’ve stated publicly already in my News Nation interview, biologics came with some of these recoveries. Yeah.

01:55:31 Speaker 17

Were they, I guess human or non human biologics.

01:55:35 Speaker 9

Non human and that was the assessment of people which acknowledge on the program. I talked to that are currently still.

01:55:40 Speaker 17

On the program and was this documentary evidence video photos eyewitness like how would that be determined?

01:55:48 Speaker 9

The specific documentation I would have to talk to you a.

01:55:51 Speaker 9

Skiff about gotcha.

01:55:54 Speaker 17

OK, so and and you may or may not be able to answer my last question and maybe.

01:55:57 Speaker 17

We get into a skiff at the next.

01:55:59 Speaker 17

Hearing that we have but.

01:56:00 Speaker 17

Who in the government either what agency sub agency, what contractors, who should be called in to the next?

01:56:09 Speaker 17

Hearing about uap’s, either in a public setting or even in a private setting and and you probably can’t name names, but what agencies or organizations, contractors, et cetera, do we need to call in to?

01:56:18 Speaker 17

Get these questions answered, whether it’s about funding what programs are happening and what’s out.

01:56:23 Speaker 9

There I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individuals that were in those.

01:56:30 Speaker 17

And how soon can we get that list?

01:56:33 Speaker 9

I’m happy to provide that.

01:56:34 Speaker 17

To you, after the hearing, super thank.

01:56:35 Speaker 17

You and I yield back.

01:56:40 Speaker 1

OK, now we have Mr. Langworthy’s here.

01:56:47 Speaker 1

OK.

01:56:49 Speaker 18

Thank you very much. I’d like to thank all of the witnesses for being here today to discuss this very unique topic and I’d like to jump right into my questions if you don’t mind. Commander, flavor, can you briefly describe your background?

01:56:49 Speaker 8

There is.

01:57:05 Speaker 10

Yeah, I was an enlisted Marine Naval Academy graduate. Navy flew for 18 years, got a masters from University of Houston, and I’ve worked in the private sector for the.

01:57:16 Speaker 10

Last, what now?

01:57:18 Speaker 10

1916 years, 17 years I do a lot of defense.

01:57:23 Speaker 18

Really, gold plated credentials. Commander Fravor, have we have all seen the floating tic TAC video that you engage with on November 14th, 2004? Can you briefly talk about why you were off the coast of San Diego that day?

01:57:38 Speaker 10

Yeah, we were at a work up with all the battle groups. So we integrate the shifts with the carrier, the airwing with the carrier and we start working. So we’re doing an air defense to hone not only our skills, but those of the USS Princeton when they had been tracking them for two weeks. The problem was that there was never manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them, and this was the first day and.

01:57:57 Speaker 10

Unfortunately, we were the ones airborne and went and saw it.

01:58:00 Speaker 18

Do you remember the weather that day?

01:58:02 Speaker 18

Was it cloudy or windy or?

01:58:03 Speaker 18

Anything out of the ordinary?

01:58:05 Speaker 10

On the Pacific Coast, it was actually if, if you familiar with San Diego was a perfect day light winds, no white caps, clear skies, not a cloud. It was for a flying. It was the best.

01:58:15 Speaker 18

Now, is it true that you saw, in your words, a 40 foot flying TikTok?

01:58:20 Speaker 10

Shaped object that’s correct or for some people that can’t know what a tic TAC is, it’s a giant flying propane tank.

01:58:27 Speaker 18

Fair enough. Did this object come?

01:58:29 Speaker 18

Up on radar or interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton.

01:58:34 Speaker 10

The Princeton track, the Nimitz track it, the E2 tracked it. We’d never saw it on our radars. Our fire control radars never picked it up. The other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar. As soon as it tried to lock it jammed the radar spit the lock, and he he’s rapidly switched over to the targeting pod, which you can do in the in the F18.

01:58:52 Speaker 18

From what you saw that day and what you’ve seen on video, did you see any source of propulsion from the flying object, including on any potential thermal scans from your?

01:59:01 Speaker 10

Aircraft. No, there’s none. There’s no IR plume coming out and Chad, who took the video, went through all the EO, which is black and white TV and the IR modes. And there’s no visual signs of propulsion. It’s just sitting in space.

01:59:13 Speaker 10

20,000 feet.

01:59:15 Speaker 18

In in your career, have you ever seen a propulsion system that creates no thermal exhaust? No.

01:59:21 Speaker 18

Can you describe how the aircraft maneuvered?

01:59:25 Speaker 10

Abruptly, very determinant it knew exactly what it was doing. It was aware of our presence and it had acceleration rates that mean it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all.

01:59:37 Speaker 18

Now if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do these maneuvers that you saw, would it be capable of doing that?

01:59:44 Speaker 10

No, not even close.

01:59:48 Speaker 18

And just to confirm, this object had no wings, correct?

01:59:51 Speaker 10

No wings.

01:59:52 Speaker 18

Now was the aircraft that you were flying, was it armed?

01:59:57 Speaker 10

No, never felt threatened at all.

02:00:00 Speaker 18

If if the aircraft was armed, do you believe that your aircraft or any aircraft in possession of the United States could have shot the tic TAC down?

02:00:10 Speaker 10

I’d say no, just on the performance, it would just left.

02:00:14 Speaker 10

In a split second.

02:00:17 Speaker 18

It looks like.

02:00:19 Speaker 18

That we have a problem here that needs further investigation, yes.

02:00:27 Speaker 18

In your belief, is this this flying tic tac? I mean, is this, is it capable of being the product of any other nation on the earth?

02:00:37 Speaker 10

No, I actually I said, like I said earlier, I think it defies current material science and the ability to develop that much propulsion. And I know there’s been some physicists have done calculations which is beyond anything that we have.

02:00:48 Speaker 18

Well, either the United States has an adversary here in this world that we don’t know, or we really have some serious investigations to do. I I really appreciate you being here. It is there anything else about the November 14th, 2004 incident that you think is important for this committee to know that you haven’t been asked?

02:01:08 Speaker 18

Here today.

02:01:09 Speaker 10

No, I I you know it’s it’s been said it’s probably the most credible UFO sighting in history based on all the sensors that we’re tracking it and then for us to get visual.

02:01:18 Speaker 10

And to go against the naysayers it it’s something on the screen or whatever. I mean, there’s four sets of human eyeballs. We’re all very credible of the six of us that were involved in the thing, including the video, every one of us is going to do 20 plus years in the military and very responsible position. So I would say the world needs to know that.

02:01:34 Speaker 10

This it’s not a.

02:01:35 Speaker 18

Joke. Thank you very much for your testimony here today. For all of you. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

02:01:41 Speaker 1

Mr. alas.

02:01:43 Speaker 19

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for being here and the courage it took to come forward and and again the sacrifice that you have made. I served on the National Security Subcommittee for the Financial Services Committee. So I really want to stay in the national security lane, if I may. So when we think about traditional adversaries and.

02:02:03 Speaker 19

Both us towards them and them towards us. You know, we probe their capabilities, we look for weaknesses and we we collect that data that reconnaissance for in the in the event we need it in the future.

02:02:18 Speaker 19

For each of you, yes or no question based off of your own experience or the data that you’ve been Privy to. Is there any indication that these UA’s could be essentially collecting reconnaissance information? Mr. Graves.

02:02:33 Speaker 19

Yes, Mr. brush. Fair assessment. Yeah, Mr. very possible. Again in the national security vein. Is it possible that these IP’s would be probing our capabilities? Yes or no, Mr. Graves? Yes. Rush. Yes, definitely.

02:02:50 Speaker 19

Is it possible that these AP’s are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems? Yes.

02:03:00 Speaker 19

Do you feel based off of your experience and information that you’ve been Privy to that these you have a UUP provide an existential threat to the national security of the United States, Mr.

02:03:11 Speaker 7

Graves. Potentially. Yes, Sir. Potentially.

02:03:15 Speaker 9

Same answer potentially.

02:03:17 Speaker 10

That’s a definitely, potentially.

02:03:17 Speaker 19

Favor Mr. Graves in favor. You know, in the event that your encounters have become hostile, would you have? Would have. Would you have had the capability to defend yourself, your crew, your aircraft?

02:03:29 Speaker 7

Absolutely not, Sir, no.

02:03:33 Speaker 19

Is based off of the information that you’ve been previewed to. Is there any indication that these AP’s are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities?

02:03:45 Speaker 9

By external observation, sure, that could be a fair.

02:03:48 Speaker 10

Assessment. Yeah, yes.

02:03:51 Speaker 19

Is there any indication that Department of Energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing?

02:03:57 Speaker 7

I don’t have an answer.

02:03:59 Speaker 9

I can’t confirm or deny that in.

02:04:00 Speaker 9

A public setting and could you do it in?

02:04:02 Speaker 19

A in a secure setting.

02:04:04 Speaker 19

Yes, Mr. flavor.

02:04:06 Speaker 6

No, I don’t know.

02:04:09 Speaker 19

Mr. Chairman, you know, I think I’m the last member to go, but.

02:04:14 Speaker 19

There clearly is a threat to the national security of the United States of America. As members of Congress, we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be aware of these activities so that, if appropriate, we take action. I would encourage the Chairman to demand.

02:04:34 Speaker 19

That we have any and all, but in particular Mr.

02:04:37 Speaker 19

Brush talked to us in a skiff and if that access is denied, I will personally volunteer to initiate the Holman rule against any personnel or any program or any agency that denies access to Congress. Mr. chairman. With that, I will.

02:04:57 Speaker 19

Yield the remainder of my time to my fellow colleague from Tennessee, Mr. Burchett.

02:05:05 Speaker 2

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Evils, for the great questions, brother. Mr. Grush, I might have asked this before, but I want to make sure. Do you have any personal knowledge of someone who’s possibly been injured working on legacy? UA P reverse engineering.

02:05:20 Speaker 2

OK.

02:05:24 Speaker 2

How were they injured? Was it? Is it something like a radioactive type situation or something we didn’t understand? I’ve heard people talk about.

02:05:33 Speaker 2

Havana syndrome type incidences what what was your recollection of?

02:05:38 Speaker 9

That I can’t get into the specifics, but you could imagine assessing an an unknown unknown. There’s a lot of potentialities you can’t fully prepare.

02:05:47 Speaker 2

For how do you think we ought to handle UAP whistleblower complaints like yours in the in the future?

02:05:53 Speaker 9

Yeah, there was some issue with mine. So you know PPD 19 process, it goes to the Intel committees either through PD 19 or I CD120. There’s not a good way for the intelligence community Inspector General to provide that to other committees. And I asked my information to be sent to the House and Senate.

02:06:13 Speaker 9

From Services committee because there are Title 10 equities at play, but there was no smooth process to do so, yeah.

02:06:19 Speaker 2

OK, that’s a trash can. Are you aware of any individuals that are participating reverse engineering programs for non terrestrial craft?

02:06:29 Speaker 9

Personally, yes.

02:06:31 Speaker 2

You know any that would be willing to testify if there were protections for them.

02:06:36 Speaker 9

Certainly closed door and assurances that breaking their NDA, they’re not going to get administratively punished for so.

02:06:44 Speaker 2

Yeah, I yield chair.

02:06:47 Speaker 1

Thank you. I’m going to do something a little bit.

02:06:49 Speaker 1

Out of the ordinary here.

02:06:51 Speaker 1

We’re going to give three people a chance at additional 3 minutes. So Mr.

02:06:56 Speaker 1

Birches do you want to keep going?

02:07:01 Speaker 2

Once you come back to me, Mr. Chairman.

02:07:04 Speaker 2

Miss Luna, if she is on, is she on that list?

02:07:09 Speaker 3

Sure, chairman, I’d like to submit for the record an article by News Nation and it follows Mr. Gresham’s full interview for the record.

02:07:18 Speaker 1

Without objection.

02:07:19 Speaker 3

Thank you, Mr. Grush, why is it that you referred to the phenomenon as non human intelligence? Why deviate from the basis of extraterrestrial?

02:07:31 Speaker 9

I think the phenomenon is a very complex and I like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin.

02:07:41 Speaker 3

When you say specific origin, are you referring? Can you elaborate on that? For those that might?

02:07:45 Speaker 9

If it’s a traditional extraterrestrial origin, or something else that we don’t quite understand from either biological or astrophysics perspective, yeah, just like.

02:07:56 Speaker 9

To keep an open mind on what.

02:07:58 Speaker 3

It could be, yeah. OK. And referring to your News Nation interview, you had referenced specific treaties between governments. Article three of the Nuclear Arms treaty with Russia identifies AP’s. It specifically mentions them to your knowledge. Are there safety measures in place with foreign governments or other superpowers?

02:08:16 Speaker 3

To avoid an.

02:08:17 Speaker 3

Escalation escalatory situation in the event that a UAP malevolent malevolent event occurs.

02:08:24 Speaker 9

Yeah, you’re referring to actual public treaty in the UN register. It’s funny mentioned that. Yeah, the agreement on measures to reduce the risk of outbreak in nuclear war signed in 1971.

02:08:35 Speaker 9

Unclassified treaty, publicly available and if you cite the George Washington University National Security Archives, you will find the declassified in 2013 specific provisions in the specific red line flash message traffic with the specific codes pursuant to article.

02:08:55 Speaker 9

Three and an article also situation 2, which is in the the previously classified NSA archive. What I would recommend and I I tried to get access but.

02:09:07 Speaker 9

I got a wall of silence at the White House.

02:09:10 Speaker 9

Was the specific incidents when those.

02:09:13 Speaker 9

Message traffic was used. I think some scholarship on that would open the door to further investigation using those publicly available information.

02:09:22 Speaker 3

Thank you. And then my last question with 51 seconds remaining you mentioned white collar crimes potentially being taking place in regards to a cover up. Can you please?

02:09:34 Speaker 3

Elaborate I have.

02:09:35 Speaker 9

Concerns based on the interviews I conducted under my official duties of potential violations of the federal acquisition.

02:09:42 Speaker 9

Regulations, the far.

02:09:45 Speaker 3

Thank you very much, chairman. I yield the remainder of my time.

02:09:49 Speaker 1

OK. We’ll go to Mr. Raskin for three minutes.

02:09:52 Speaker 11

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and I think the witnesses for their endurance and service today. Mr. Flavor, you’ve described your episode in detail now and you call it the most credible UFO sighting UFO sighting in history.

02:10:10 Speaker 11

I wonder, was this the first time that you encountered UFO or UAP?

02:10:18 Speaker 11

In 2004, yes. And what was your general attitude or perspective on the UFO discussion before that happened?

02:10:31 Speaker 10

I never felt that we were alone. We have all the planets out there. But God wasn’t a UFO person.

02:10:37 Speaker 10

I wasn’t. I wasn’t watching history channel and MUFON and all.

02:10:40 Speaker 11

That and have you had experiences or encounters since that happened?

02:10:49 Speaker 11

And so have you formed any general conclusions about what you think you experienced then?

02:10:56 Speaker 10

Yes, I think what we experienced was like I said, well beyond the material science and the capabilities that we had at the time that we have currently or that we’re going to have in the next 10 to 20 years.

02:11:08 Speaker 11

Very good, Mr. Gresh, you’ve been able to answer in great detail on certain questions and then other things you say you’re not able to respond to. Can you just explain where you’re drawing the line, what, what’s the basis for that?

02:11:21 Speaker 9

Yeah, based on my adopter security review and what they’ve determined that is unclassified.

02:11:29 Speaker 11

I see. So you’re answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of unclassified questions, but anything that relates to classified matters, you’re not commenting on in this context?

02:11:41 Speaker 9

In an open session, but happy to participate in a closed session at the.

02:11:44 Speaker 11

Right level. Yeah. OK. And Mr. Graves, you said that there, there are dozens of fellow pilots, military pilots are there also commercial pilots who’ve encountered.

02:11:58 Speaker 11

The same, the same kind of sightings that you described before.

02:12:03 Speaker 7

They are similar pilots. Commercial pilots have less range and less sensors to be able to reach out and look for objects over wide swaths of airspace, and so pilots are seeing commercial pilots are seeing, and they’re typically closer, and the range of what they’re seeing is is pretty large.

02:12:19 Speaker 11

Well, what is the most vivid concrete sighting with the naked eye of the objects that you described before the cube like objects?

02:12:29 Speaker 7

Certainly, I think the most vivid sighting of that would have been near a near mid air that we had at the entrance to our working area. One of these objects was completely stationary.